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FINAL (?) UPDATE: Ok, I guess the stylesheet and the <p /> tags are red herrings. The issue of which browser behavior is more correct is almost a red herring as well, because even if one or two browsers behave "incorrectly", getting the behavior changed will be difficult, and will only solve my problem if the konqueror behavior is wrong and is changed.

The real issue (or the issue that is most controllable or most subject to my influence) is the blank lines that I insert before and after a heading when I edit a page. I want these for readability on the edit page. Potential solutions:

  • When editing, don't insert blank lines before and after TWiki headings (and go back and fix all the pages on TWiki that already have them)
  • Create a TWiki patch (and option) that does not emit a <p /> for at least one blank line before and after a heading. And then I need to think about the behavior for additional blank lines — should TWiki emit one less <p /> tag than the number of blank lines before or after a heading (so there is a way, at least in konqueror, to increase vertical whitespace beyond the minimum?)?
  • Create a TWiki patch to eliminate all <p /> tags and surround all paragraphs with <p> and </p> tags. (And possibly make some adjustments to a stylesheet for fine tuning?)

SIDE ISSUE*: _I may want to start a new page for another issue. When an attachment table is included on a page (and not hidden), the page takes a significantly longer time to download, and I can see that the delay occurs as the attachment table is rendered. (In particular, the table heading.) I'm going to start making it a practice on WikiLearn to hide those tables (and leave a note there that says something like "Files are attached to this page (and links are embedded in the text above). The attachment table is hidden to reduce page download and rendering time. To view the attachment table, click "Attach", below."

And, I may start a new topic to record and consider the issue — why does the heading take so long to download and render? Is it perhaps transmitting the heading as a graphic image (i.e., bitmap)? The reason that question arises is that on the Preview page, the background text word "Preview" is hidden by the table rendering over the background. Maybe the page title on Wikilearn should be Attachment Table Slow Rendering.

NEXT UPDATE: Ok, I've fooled around some with the <p /> tags, and tried deleting them and surrounding paragraphs with the "proper (??) <p> and </p> tags. I'm now ready to upload some files that I revised and viewed on IE so that I can view them on Mozilla and konqueror. It seems that this may provide a solution.

  • test0a.html: (Without stylesheet): The original page, in other words, without a stylesheet and with all the original <p /> tags.

  • I created test0aa.html which is the original (test0a.html) with all <p /> tags replaced with <p></p> pairs. It made no difference to konqueror, so I have not uploaded it here.

  • test0b.html: (Best ss so far): The best "stylesheet" so far, (with all original <p /> tags). Basically, I added a 10 pixel margin to the top and bottom of a P (paragraph) and set all other top and bottom margins, borders, and padding for paragraphs, headers, and list items to 0. I've also modified the stylesheet for this page to match — now to see how it looks on Mozilla and IE.

  • test0.html (With <p /> tags): An unchanged version of an earlier revision of this page. Looks fine in IE.

  • test1.html (<p />s deleted): The same file as above, with all <p /> tags removed. Looks bad in IE because adjacent paragraphs run together.

  • test2.html (Some <p> </p>s): The same file as above, with the first (i.e., adjacent) paragraphs surrounded by <p> and </p> tags. Looks fine in IE.

  • test3.html (All <p> </p>s): The same file as above, with all paragraphs surrounded by <p> and </p> tags. Looks fine in IE — not sure I can spot a difference between this and the previous file. Looks better than the original page in konqueror, and no deterioration in Mozilla.

  • test4.html (Styles deleted): The same file as above, but with the styles that I had added (present in all of the previous test files and on this page) deleted. Looks OK in IE, but maybe could use a little more vertical whitespace between list items. (On the other hand, maybe that is the way they should appear, someone can add (sorry) <br /> tags to increase the spacing if desired.) Looks better than the original page in konqueror, and no deterioration in Mozilla.

UPDATE: I'm not quite giving up, but I see a problem that I don't yet know how to overcome. One big reason for the extra space in konqueror compared to Mozilla and IE (between, for example, a heading and a bullet list) is two fold:

  • TWiki outputs a blank paragraph between them <p /> (and, BTW, does not enclose paragraphs in <p>, </p> tags — is that malformed HTML (or XHTML?) — should it be changed?).
  • IE and Mozilla seem to shrink an empty (or multiple empty) <p /> down to none (or one — I'm not 100% sure), while konqueror does not — in konqueror if you have seven successive <p />s, you get vertical white space like seven blank lines.

Although I like the ability konqueror gives me to "force" extra vertical whitespace, I'd give that up to reduce the excessive whitespace I see on "normal" TWiki pages. (Is it only TWiki pages where I see the problem??)

Anyway, I don't immediately know how to do that, and suspect it may require changes to the konqueror render engine (if that's the right thing).

On the other hand, potentially TWiki could be modified to not insert a <p /> between a heading and a list item — I might experiment a little to see what Mozilla and IE would do in that case.

This is a test page to see whether I can control the vertical whitespace displayed on TWiki pages when viewed with konqueror. I will repeat this paragraph a few times to give me some test paragraphs to view. This looks like it could be a ton of trial and error, but I'll start with paragraphs and see if I can get reasonable results with both konqueror and Mozilla / IE. Then I'll consider my next step, either moving on to other styles (headings, lists, etc.), or focusing first on learning how to include these styles in my default local stylesheet for konqueror.

This is a test page to see whether I can control the vertical whitespace displayed on TWiki pages when viewed with konqueror. I will repeat this paragraph a few times to give me some test paragraphs to view.

This is a test page to see whether I can control the vertical whitespace displayed on TWiki pages when viewed with konqueror. I will repeat this paragraph a few times to give me some test paragraphs to view. This is a test page to see whether I can control the vertical whitespace displayed on TWiki pages when viewed with konqueror. I will repeat this paragraph a few times to give me some test paragraphs to view.

Contents

Notes

Pixel Size

Hmm, are pixels bigger in konqueror than in IE and Mozilla? With 15px top and bottom margins, I see more blank space between paragraphs in konqueror than I do in Mozilla or IE. Why? (I'm using the same monitor, and the same screen resolution (from three different computers, though, running through a KVM).

  • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  • Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.

  1. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  2. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  3. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    1. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    2. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    3. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
    4. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.
  4. Creating a bullet and then a numbered list for test.

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test
Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test
Some headings for test
Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

Some headings for test

And uncommenting the resources section for testing headings.

Resources

See Resource Recommendations. Feel free to add additional resources to these lists, but please follow the guidelines on ResourceRecommendations including Guidelines_for_Rating_Resources.

Recommended

  • (rhk) [[][]]; ; —

Recommended for Specific Needs

Hmm, are pixels bigger in konqueror than in IE and Mozilla? With 15px top and bottom margins, I see more blank space between paragraphs in konqueror than I do in Mozilla or IE. Nope, the problem appears to be that Mozilla and IE render an <p /> as taking up no vertical space, while konqueror renders it as taking up one "line" of vertical space.

Recommended by Others

  • (rhk) [[][]]; ; —

No Recommendation

  • (rhk) [[][]]; ; —

Not Recommended

  • (rhk) [[][]]; ; —

Contributors

  • () RandyKramer - 19 May 2003
  • If you edit this page: add your name here; move this to the next line; and if you've used a comment marker (your initials in parenthesis), include it before your WikiName.

Attached Files

Files are attached to this page (and links are embedded in the text above). The attachment table is hidden to reduce page download and rendering time. To view the attachment table, click "Attach", below.

Page Ratings

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Topic revision: r6 - 2003-05-23 - RandyKramer
 
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