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My _Permanent_ Sandbox

I should make this more clear--I anticipate keeping a copy of this page both on a TWiki (on WikiLearn) and on a Foswiki (Foswiki). "Normally", the content should be identical, but it may differ at times while editing of one page or the other is in progress and hasn't yet been copied to the other page.

Copying a permanent sandbox from twiki.org (WikiLearn, i.e., the Wikilearn web) to see how it looks on Foswiki. I'm hoping it won't be deleted, but it's not the end of the world if it is as it is preserved here on twiki.org.

At a quick glance, most stuff over here looks identical to what I see in TWiki, except the stuff under Nested Markup (below). I'll add a few observations down there...

Note: Although this is a sandbox, it is my sandbox (rhk), and I have some stuff here I want to preserve for posterity. I'd really prefer that you create and use your own sandbox. If you want to try something relevant to what I've tried here, switch to raw view mode, copy the content, and move it wholesale to another sandbox, preferably in the Sandbox web. If you really want a sandbox preserved for posterity, write to me and tell me why--I'll probably give you permission to put one here (meaning on WikiLearn / twiki.org). (You can put one here without permission, but I will feel no compunction against deleting it without warning.)

(In-line) Markup Embedded in Punctuation

Wow, this appears to be more complicated than I expected--it appears I could test for years, or see what TWiki does, or try asking, for example, Crawford Currie. Note that in at least two cases, the bold even takes effect within ==, which, in my vague recollection were supposed to avoid TWiki markup from having an effect--oops, no, I'm wrong about that--it needs to be in <verbatim> tags, so add another copy of each "word"

Other notes:

  • the automatic numbers didn't work the first time through--then I realized it was because of the double spacing (blank space between each line), so I added <ol> </ol> tags to try to make it one continuous list, but that didn't work either--I guess <ol> tags are inserted by TWiki and kill my ordered list as well as its own ordered list (even though they are not matched--maybe I have to look at the actual HTML source...)

  1. "Rendered": testing
    Monospaced: testing
    Verbatim:  testing
  2. "*testing*"
    Monospaced: "*testing*"
    Verbatim: "*testing*"
  3. "testing"
    Monospaced: *"testing"*
    Verbatim: *"testing"*
  4. *"testing*"
    Monospaced: *"testing*"
    Verbatim: *"testing*"
  5. "*testing"*
    Monospaced: "*testing"*
    Verbatim: "*testing"*
  6. ("testing")
    Monospaced: ("testing")
    Verbatim: (*"testing"*)
  7. (*"testing*")
    Monospaced: (*"testing*")
    Verbatim: (*"testing*")
  8. ("*testing*")
    Monospaced: ("*testing*")
    Verbatim: ("*testing*")
  9. ("testing")
    Monospaced: *("testing")*
    Verbatim: *("testing")*
  10. (testing)
    Monospaced: (testing)
    Verbatim: (*testing*)
  11. (testing)
    Monospaced: *(testing)*
    Verbatim: *(testing)*
  12. (testing)
    Monospaced: (testing)
    Verbatim: *(testing*)
  13. (testing)
    Monospaced: (*testing)*
    Verbatim: (*testing)*

Some more trials:

  1. (%"*testing*")
    Monospaced: (%"*testing*")
    Verbatim: (%"*testing*")
  2. (%*"testing"*)
    Monospaced: (%*"testing"*)
    Verbatim: (%"*testing*")
  3. tes(ting
    Monospaced: tes(*ting*
    Verbatim: tes(*ting*
  4. tes(ti,ng
    Monospaced: tes(ti,ng
    Verbatim: tes(*ti*,ng

New rules inferred from the Sandbox page:

  • Markup inside (double) quotes does not work (single quotes not tested so far) (there are some anomalous results when one markup is within the quotes and one is outside, but I suspect that is because the markup is not recognized as a "pair") (I guess I need to switch to a three word test to be more definitive.)

  • Markup does work within monospace tags (equal signs), but there are exceptions?? Yes--
    • item 9: *("testing")* doesn't show up in bold
    • item 11 *(testing)* doesn't show up in bold

In contrast:

    • item 6: ("testing") does show up in bold
    • item 10: (testing) does show up in bold

Contrasting to something different (but related), outside of monospace tags:

    • item 9: ("testing") does show up in bold
    • item 11 (testing) does show up in bold

Before thinking about writing to Currie, I need to see if the same behaviors occur in Foswiki... And maybe before that, I want to add more examples?

Tentative "conclusion": Hmm, it gets very confusing. If I really want to try to make my lexing / highlighting (nearly) work the same as TWiki/Foswiki, I guess I'll have to grab the Foswiki (or TWiki) source code and see how they do it. (Then the question (or difficulty) of how to make the two work identically while one uses regexes (TWiki and Foswiki) and the other uses more (what's the word--) iterative (?? I don't think that's the word I'm looking for) code without regexes will be the followup. Not sure it's really worth it to me atm--maybe I should leave it for the future. Last time I tried to look for things like this in the TWiki perl code, I had a terrible time.

Older note: A "get out of jail free card" approach could be to declare certain behavior "undefined"--it might work one way in TWiki, maybe differently in Foswiki, and probably still differently in askRhk. (That is, abandon my desire / preference that, except where I knowingly and intentionally modify TWiki behavior, any markup that is recognized in a Scintilla based editor is handled similarly in TWiki--kind of a way of learning TWiki markup automatically--if Scintilla recognizes the markup, then you've done it right.

  1. "Rendered": testing
    Monospaced: testing
    Verbatim:  testing
  2. "_testing_"
    Monospaced: "_testing_"
    Verbatim: "_testing_"
  3. "testing"
    Monospaced: _"testing"_
    Verbatim: _"testing"_
  4. _"testing_"
    Monospaced: _"testing_"
    Verbatim: _"testing_"
  5. "_testing"_
    Monospaced: "_testing"_
    Verbatim: "_testing"_
  6. ("testing")
    Monospaced: ("testing")
    Verbatim: (_"testing"_)
  7. (_"testing_")
    Monospaced: (_"testing_")
    Verbatim: (_"testing_")
  8. ("_testing_")
    Monospaced: ("_testing_")
    Verbatim: ("_testing_")
  9. ("testing")
    Monospaced: _("testing")_
    Verbatim: _("testing")_
  10. (testing)
    Monospaced: (testing)
    Verbatim: (_testing_)
  11. (testing)
    Monospaced: _(testing)_
    Verbatim: _(testing)_
  12. (testing)
    Monospaced: (testing)
    Verbatim: _(testing_)
  13. (testing)
    Monospaced: (_testing)_
    Verbatim: (_testing)_

Embedded markup in longer strings (and double quotes)

"test test test"

Verbatim: "test *test* test"

test "test" test

Verbatim: *test "test" test*

"test test test"

Verbatim: "test _test_ test"

test "test" test

Verbatim: _test "test" test_

Scintilla Folding Testing--with HTML comment markers

I'm not sure I want to tell anybody what I'm doing here, even if it works. It seems almost too embarrassing--both embarrassing because it's such a silly approach, and embarrassing because I didn't think of it 10 years ago. (Well, ok, I only found SciTE/Scintilla a little earlier this year--I should try to remember about when.)

WRONG: This seemed to be true in one specific case--don't remember where, exactly, maybe in a forced link. Hmm,. I just realized (on Foswiki) that angle brackets (without the HTML comment markup (i.e., ! -- and --)) work to hide stuff--if the same works on TWiki, I might modify my current silly approach in Scintilla to use just angle brackets instead of the entire HTML comment markup.

RESOLVED, I HAD THEM WRONG: Hmm, the comment markers aren't working to hide the '{'s at all, but they aren't that obtrusive--maybe I'll just skip the comment markers, but I want to test them by putting this paragraph in comment markers. (Do I have them wrong?) Ahh, maybe I do / did--yeah, its <! -- (space inserted in previous to disable it as a comment marker, but, the space I had in there should not have disabled it, as, iiuc, the comment marker is !--, i.e., the leading "<" is for other reasons, anyway, moving the space to see if that has any effect on disabling the TOC entry), not <--! ... so now let's try them all in comment markers...

Now, that I have the comment markers entered correctly, let me add some test text to this, to confirm things work right with text...

Ok, I apparently mis-remembered how to disable a heading from the TOC, it takes a "!!"--now experimenting some more to see exactly where. (or what the options are--can it be after the { in comment markers?

Level 3 Heading

Level 4 Heading

Wow, it seems I can put that "!!" in a wide variety of places to disable the entry to the TOC. I'll have to pick where I like it best.

A Level 4 Heading which should not appear in the TOC

Just some random text.

Level 5 Heading--why not indented further in TOC?--RESOLVED

Hmm, why isn't this level 5 heading indented more than the level 4 heading in the TOC--I've just double checked the number of "+"s--it's right. Ok, I deleted all the Level 4 headings with !! to keep out of TOC, and now things are indented properly. I'll but them back and look more carefully to see if I made a mistake in the markup (or, if one in particular causes the problem).

RESOLVED: Or, at least, understood--the problem occurs if the !! is within the HTML comment marker, i.e., <! -- !! { --> or <! -- { !! -->

Now let's try the same five tests (here, and then on TWiki) with just the angle brackets, i.e., without the !-- --

  • Bullet List Item

Continuation paragraph under a bullet item--had to put it in blockquotes to indent it like the bullet item "heading"--need to think about how to handle this in Scintilla.

UPDATE RE BELOW: OK, I guess there'd be a way to do something with some css--I'll have to think about whether I want to even consider that--would it mean my own TWiki skin to maintain?

Hmm (do I ever say "hmm"?)--in some ways this isn't too bad, but, really it's more useful / appropriate for real quotes--when in a block like that, they really look like a quotation, so then I'm at a loss for how to have (and show) a continuation paragraph for a list item. In a folding editor (like one based on Scintilla), the folds will help, but here on TWiki, those folds will be lost, and, even if I implemented collapsible folding by that mechanism I "know about"--notes somewhere--basically hiding stuff--I think it required javascript), TWiki (and, presumably Foswiki) don't have anything like the fold margin which shows (can show) the extent of (folding) regions by a vertical line, plus signs in boxes, and similar. So, something to cogitate over.

Hmm, just confirming that a nested blockquote indents the paragraph twice as much (to match, or almost match a 2nd level List Item).

Hmm, is this a change in TWiki behavior (or due to the skin applied)--now, blockquotes appear in a block. IIRC, they used to be just indented. I wonder what I'd have to do to get the old behavior back? I might end up asking someone--hmm, but I don't know whether to ask here or on Foswiki--maybe I have to ask both places, and might possibly get two different answers? As long as both work, I guess that's OK, but I have to allow for the possibility that Foswiki and TWiki diverge "irreconcilably" (sp?--hmm, Merriam Webster says it's right--maybe it's just not in this (i.e., TWiki's) dictionary) over time--I wonder if Foswiki now has a test web and sandbox, and if I can try this same page over there? (IIRC, the first time I went looking for something like that, they didn't have it--but maybe I didn't look in the right places--and why am I rambling like this? Wait, don't answer that. wink

Just some random text, again.

Another Level 4 Heading

Just some random text, again.

Just some random text, again.

Scintilla Folding Testing--with angle brackets (only)

The quickest way to test with angle brackets only, is to duplicate this entire section, which I've now done, but I'm going to remove most of the "stream of consciousness" comments to minimize clutter (and duplication).

Nope, that's not going to work, and now I'm confused, why did I think it would work--was it here (on Foswiki) where I thought I saw just angle brackets working? I guess even if it did work over on TWiki, I wouldn't want to go that way (I don't think, still, it will probably be years until I move to a Foswiki (especially if WikiLearn stays at twiki.org wink , so maybe I could go that way for the foreseeable future.

Yes, it was here on Foswiki--I forget where I noticed it, and maybe it works some places but not others, but the point is it doesn't work everywhere, so...

<{> Level 3 Heading

< { > Level 4 Heading

Verbatim Test

Verbatim keeps TWiki markup from being interpreted, and makes it monospaced.

---++ Nested markup

Nested Markup

Foswiki notes: This section appears grossly different on Foswiki. I haven't spent time trying to pick out all the differences, but the first obvious one is everything is black text, no colors. The next thing I notice, which might be a clue, is that almost all of them appear with a ?, implying a bad link--maybe the colors aren't appearing because they are bad links, and Foswiki goes to the trouble of checking them (and TWiki doesn't???). Anyway, I'll experiment a little by making one or a few of them valid links.--Yup, that's apparently the problem, but I won't spend any more time on it atm.

Trying out some nested markup to see how it works in TWiki, and thus how I probably want it to work in Scintilla (when I write LexTWiki.cxx or whatever).

Ok, some of these work, for some definition of work--now I need to make some useful notes to move to scite.aml... Not sure why the TWikiWord and links show up as brown--I guess that's because of a (to me, weird) stylesheet.

Maybe the easiest way to capture notes is to copy this whole section to scite.aml, adding a few notes, here, including:

  • WAE for Works As Expected
  • NETW for Not Expected to Work--meaning Well, I Didn't Expect That To Work, But I Had To See
  • Weird for, it did something, fairly unexpected--I'm sure I could explain if I tried hard enough (I took lessons from the lizard king), but I think I should just try to ignore it--hmm, will that be considered a bug someday? Maybe...) Also, to see what it did, you have to take a look, which also leaves the possibility that, by the time somebody looks in the future, it will have changed--maybe I'll copy those lines from the rendered page and add some notes...

  • RhkPermanentSandbox (added for Foswiki test)
  • TWikiWord (WAE)
  • TWikiWord (bold, but not link colored--i.e., black)
  • TWikiWord (italic, but not link colored--i.e., black)

Change in TWiki Revision Behavior

I see a change in TWiki default behavior--it seems each change is being saved as a revision, even though I'm sure not an hour has passed between them (or even 20 minutes).

Today: Hmm, maybe I was wrong about this, or I'm making changes much faster today, and was much slower yesterday.

Testing List Continuation

The following looked new to me, and I didn't quite understand it, so I want to do some testing:

HELP For all the list types, you can break a list item over several lines by indenting lines after the first one by at least 3 spaces.

Ok, I understand, it's analogous to the way you can enter separate lines (separated by \n) of "ordinary" paragraph text and have the concatenated into one paragraph. Here you can enter (subsequent) lines of text, separated by, for example "\n " and have them concatenated into one list item. It's sort of the opposite of anything I'd want to do--I'd rather have an easy way to have separate paragraphs, indented to look like they are sub-paragraphs of the bulleted or numbered list item. I can fake it today by using blockquote, but that is aggravating.

  • WAE for Works As Expected NETW for Not Expected to Work--meaning Well, I Didn't Expect That To Work, But I Had To See Weird for, it did something, fairly unexpected--I'm sure I could explain if I tried hard enough (I took lessons from the lizard king), but I think I should just try to ignore it--hmm, will that be considered a bug someday? Maybe...) Also, to see what it did, you have to take a look, which also leaves the possibility that, by the time somebody looks in the future, it will have changed--maybe I'll copy those lines from the rendered page and add some notes...

Topics as tuples

Not sure what I was testing or trying to prove with the below (or what Michael's change was):

Topics currently form a tuple of data (parts of these attributes overlap)

    • (topicname, section1,section2,section3,section4,...,text,metadatavar1,metadatavar2,metadatavar3...)

test _test_

_test_
<nop>_test_

-- RandyKramer - 09 Sep 2009

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Topic revision: r14 - 2011-10-06 - RandyKramer
 
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