[11:31] *** #twiki_dakar: PeterThoeny Lavr MichaelDaum_ [11:31] *** #twiki_dakar was created on Sat Dec 17 03:27:10 2005. [11:55] *** ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_dakar. [11:56] *** CDot has joined #twiki_dakar. [11:57] CDot: Evening, all! [11:57] *** CDot has changed the topic on channel #twiki_dakar to Free the Dakar 5!. [11:57] ArthurClemens: hi - I am glad I can join after all, at a friend's place [11:58] CDot: why did you get bennaed? [11:58] CDot: banned? [11:58] ArthurClemens: My provider noticed a Trojan on one of my computers [11:58] CDot: Ouch [11:59] ArthurClemens: It was on my pc that I use to check css with [11:59] ArthurClemens: I've cleaned it, but they re-applied the ban [11:59] CDot: You were lucky they noticed - it could have been there for ages [11:59] ArthurClemens: just before the weekend [12:00] ArthurClemens: But everything stops. Work is not just web browsing [12:00] Lavr: Evening guys [12:00] CDot: Hi Kenneth [12:00] ArthurClemens: Hi [12:03] CDot: Well, it would be good if Lynnwood could show up..... [12:04] PeterThoeny: hi all, Peter here [12:04] Lavr: Hi Peter [12:04] * Lavr is KennethLavrsen [12:04] PeterThoeny: sorry my ignorance, who is lavr? [12:04] PeterThoeny: oh, thanks [12:04] PeterThoeny: hi kenneth [12:05] PeterThoeny: is anyone using skype? [12:05] ArthurClemens: Hi Peter, I think we are still waiting for Lynnwood. Shall we give him 5 minutes? [12:05] ArthurClemens: I don't have skype [12:05] *** terceiro has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:06] terceiro: hi all [12:06] CDot: I'm wondering if maybe Lynnwood got his times wrong [12:06] PeterThoeny: highly recommended, especially for itnl calls [12:06] Lavr: Hi Terceiro [12:06] CDot: hey Antonio [12:06] PeterThoeny: hi antonio [12:06] Lavr: Skype has a limit of 5 so we are already too many. [12:07] CDot: does anyne known Lynnwoods Skype address? [12:07] * terceiro doesn't use skype [12:07] PeterThoeny: not me [12:07] PeterThoeny: lynwood mentined that he goes skiing with his son in the morning [12:08] PeterThoeny: may be he is a bit late coming back [12:08] ArthurClemens: I've just sent him an email [12:08] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll shoot an e-mail [12:08] ArthurClemens: too late :-) [12:08] CDot: arthur just did that.... [12:08] ArthurClemens: Will this conversation get logged? [12:08] CDot: not at the moment [12:09] CDot: need to be a channel op to invite logger [12:09] CDot: it can be logged by someone taking a cat and paste easily enough [12:09] PeterThoeny: ok e-mail to lynwood sent [12:09] CDot: ^cat^cut [12:10] ArthurClemens: Who will do the task of putting this online later this evening? [12:10] CDot: anyway, I don;t want to hang around here all night, so let's get started. The big question is, what are we waiting for to release Dakar? [12:10] CDot: ArthurClemens: I'll do that [12:11] ArthurClemens: I think Peter can start off [12:11] PeterThoeny: ok, i have several things [12:11] ArthurClemens: CDot: ok [12:11] PeterThoeny: the biggest thing is Item663 [12:11] PeterThoeny: TWiki.org doc merge [12:11] PeterThoeny: frankly, the quality of the current doc is not up to the standard [12:12] CDot: standard? [12:12] PeterThoeny: so there are two issues [12:12] PeterThoeny: out of sync with twiki.org [12:12] PeterThoeny: and doc up to standards [12:12] ArthurClemens: Peter, can you tell us what is missing before it lives up to the standard? [12:13] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiDocsStyleGuide [12:13] CDot: and can you tell us why all the work lynnwood and I did on mergeing the docs was apparently a waste of time? [12:13] PeterThoeny: not a waste of time [12:14] PeterThoeny: crawford closed Item663 at a point where i did agree that it can be closed [12:14] PeterThoeny: hence i took it into my own hand [12:14] PeterThoeny: and worked many days on the docs [12:14] PeterThoeny: i have not been active in the last two weeks due to a busy schedule [12:15] PeterThoeny: anyway, there 49 topics left i need to go through [12:15] ArthurClemens: TWikiDocsStyleGuide lists many guidelines - what is generally missing? [12:15] PeterThoeny: not just the guidlines [12:16] PeterThoeny: content written in a place that is not intuitive for new users etc [12:16] PeterThoeny: just see the changelogs of my doc work and you will see [12:16] CDot: I can see a lot of formatting fixes [12:17] ArthurClemens: Could you make a list of these docs? [12:17] PeterThoeny: yes, that one too [12:17] ArthurClemens: As a project leader, you are in the position to delegate these things. [12:17] PeterThoeny: for example, TWikiVariables should have just bullets [12:17] PeterThoeny: it had tables left aligned [12:17] PeterThoeny: it had missing Related [12:17] PeterThoeny: etc [12:18] PeterThoeny: point two: Item958 [12:18] PeterThoeny: Upload incompatibility with Cairo [12:18] ArthurClemens: Sorry Peter, not finished yet [12:18] PeterThoeny: not too big change [12:18] ArthurClemens: I would like to close this off [12:18] ArthurClemens: The documentation issue [12:18] PeterThoeny: i inteded to list the items first [12:19] PeterThoeny: ok, if preferred to discuss one by one [12:19] PeterThoeny: lets do that [12:19] ArthurClemens: We're in the middle now [12:19] PeterThoeny: so how to proceed on docs? [12:19] ArthurClemens: I propose you make a list of topics] [12:19] ArthurClemens: with a short line what should be changed [12:20] ArthurClemens: and divide the list [12:20] ArthurClemens: let other people finish it off [12:20] ArthurClemens: 10 docs per person [12:20] CDot: All that is required are Bug web entries [12:20] CDot: that is the right way to track [12:20] PeterThoeny: i can do that, although that is almost the same work as fixing since I have look at the diff and to read through the text [12:20] CDot: Peter, this is very very frustrating [12:20] Lavr: Maybe dividing the list of documents is not the best way to get to a release of Dakar? Maybe it is actually better to leave that to 1-2 people. [12:20] ArthurClemens: I don't think a project leader should do this work [12:21] PeterThoeny: not all developers are doc persons [12:21] CDot: you are saying you won't let the release go because there is work remaining, but you won't tell us what work you think needs doing! [12:21] PeterThoeny: i think it is good to divide the work [12:21] ArthurClemens: You need to keep more distance from the nitty gritty [12:21] PeterThoeny: possibly with lynwood [12:22] ArthurClemens: Peter, you make the list, Lynnwood and 1 or 2 other people can do the work [12:22] CDot: It is moot for me; clearly my documentation is not up to scratch, so it's pointless for me to be involved in further docs work. [12:22] Lavr: I think documentation gets more consistant of addressed by a few that are good at it and have an idea how the end result is supposed to be. There is plenty to do on the testing and fixing to get Dakar ready. [12:22] PeterThoeny: ok, here is the raw list of 49 topics i intend to go throuh: TWikiContributor TWikiHistory TWikiInstallationGuide TWikiPreferences TWikiRegistration TWikiUpgradeGuide TWikiUserAuthentication TWikiUsernameVsLoginUsername TWikiVariables TWikiVariablesAtoM TWikiVariablesNtoZ TWikiWebsTable TemplateWeb TextEditor TextFormattingFAQ TextFormattingRules TimBernersLee UnlockTopic WebBottomBar WebChangesAlert WebHome WebIndex WebLeftBar WebLeftBarCookbook WebLeftBarExample WebLeftBarPersonalTemplate WebRss WebRssBase WebSearch WebSearchAdvanced WebSiteTools WebTopBar WebTopicEditTemplate WebTopicList WebTopicNonWikiTemplate WebTopicViewTemplate WelcomeGuest WhatIsWikiWiki WikiCulture WikiName WikiNotation WikiReferences WikiSyntaxSummary WikiTopic WikiWikiClones WikiWord WindowsInstallCookbook WindowsInstallSummary YouAreHere [12:22] *** You have been disconnected. Sat Dec 17 12:22:41 2005. [12:23] *** Automatically rejoining channel... [12:23] *** Channel re-joined successfully. [12:23] *** Initial topic: Free the Dakar 5! [12:23] *** #twiki_dakar: PeterThoeny terceiro CDot ArthurClemens Lavr MichaelDaum_ [12:23] CDot: he's back! [12:23] *** #twiki_dakar was created on Sat Dec 17 03:27:10 2005. [12:23] PeterThoeny: not sure what happend [12:23] ArthurClemens: Peter, get more experience with IRC! [12:23] ArthurClemens: Excess Flood error [12:23] PeterThoeny: it is the first time i use irc [12:23] PeterThoeny: oic [12:24] Lavr: Welcome back. IRC network kicks flooders. Don't paste to many lines at a time. [12:24] CDot: if you paste too much, you get kicked off [12:24] CDot: anyway, here is not the best place for that list [12:24] CDot: an item in Bugs web is the best place [12:24] ArthurClemens: Peter, if you have more distance, you can just check how things are going even if you are busy yourself. [12:24] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll post that in http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/DakarMergeProgress [12:25] ArthurClemens: How do you feel about delegating this? [12:25] PeterThoeny: well, the reason why i pasted it was crawford comment that "you are saying you won't let the release go because there is work remaining, but you won't tell us what work you think needs doing!" [12:25] ArthurClemens: (don't run away) [12:26] ArthurClemens: So a doc editor, how should he get started on the docs? [12:26] PeterThoeny: i know there is tention in the virtual room, everyone wants dakar released [12:26] CDot: sure, I understand that. But paste to a topic in Bugs web. [12:26] PeterThoeny: and i am the person holding it back as it seems like [12:27] CDot: Tension? That's an understatement. [12:27] Lavr: Peter, you are not alone in wanting to hold back the release. [12:27] ArthurClemens: We haven't finished our list. [12:27] Lavr: The major task - as I see it - is the rate that bugs still arrive. [12:27] PeterThoeny: so shall we spend a bit of time on what is bugging people? [12:27] CDot: I don;t have a problem with people holding back the release [12:27] PeterThoeny: getting this out and cleared is important too [12:28] CDot: what I have a problem with is people holding back the release *for no apparent reason* [12:28] ArthurClemens: I would like to close off the documentation first. [12:28] PeterThoeny: ok, back to docs [12:28] ArthurClemens: Peter, anything to add or to answer? [12:28] Lavr: I think it is important that some focus on documents, some on testing heavily, and some on fixing bugs. I think all agree that we are on a feature freeze. [12:28] ArthurClemens: Lets get very concrete. [12:29] ArthurClemens: Peter, your next steps on the docs are ... ? [12:29] PeterThoeny: starting next week i have time again to work on docs [12:29] ArthurClemens: Lavr, we get back to this later [12:29] ArthurClemens: We just wanted the list... [12:29] PeterThoeny: next steps: get in touch with lynwood to see if he can help out [12:29] PeterThoeny: then work on the docs [12:30] ArthurClemens: What other people can we ask? [12:30] PeterThoeny: some experienced tech writer [12:30] PeterThoeny: i am not aware we have one [12:31] ArthurClemens: Side action: actively try to get a tech writer [12:31] PeterThoeny: yes, mike mannix did an excellent job [12:31] PeterThoeny: he was working very closely with the developers [12:32] ArthurClemens: I would like to offer my help, but I am Dutch. [12:32] PeterThoeny: and proactively probed the developers to understand new features [12:32] PeterThoeny: this was smooth sailing with mike [12:32] CDot: well, Mike Mannix isn't available now, so if you want a TA, you will have to look elsewhere. [12:32] PeterThoeny: for cairo i palyed that role [12:32] PeterThoeny: which increased my workload [12:33] PeterThoeny: for dakar nobody took that role [12:33] PeterThoeny: until i stepped in two month ago [12:33] PeterThoeny: so action item for all [12:33] PeterThoeny: look for a tech writer [12:34] ArthurClemens: Can we make this a notification in Codev and twiki.org homepage? [12:34] PeterThoeny: it is in CodevHelpWanted i think [12:34] CDot: now we are going to delay the release until we have a tech author on board? [12:34] PeterThoeny: wondering where to get more exposure [12:34] PeterThoeny: possibly sf.net? [12:35] PeterThoeny: no, that is not the idea crawford [12:35] CDot: then what is the idea? [12:35] PeterThoeny: if lynwood agrees, lynwood and i are working on the docs [12:35] CDot: ok - so no delay waiting for a TA [12:35] PeterThoeny: correct [12:36] ArthurClemens: ok, not ideal, but lets proceed for the time being [12:36] ArthurClemens: Next point [12:36] ArthurClemens: Any questions left for the docs? [12:36] CDot: yes [12:36] CDot: how long will this take? [12:36] ArthurClemens: fair point [12:37] PeterThoeny: still many hours left [12:37] PeterThoeny: i estimate about 60% done [12:37] CDot: many? is that 5? 10? 100? 1000? [12:37] PeterThoeny: easily 40 hours [12:38] PeterThoeny: any other things to discuss on docs? [12:39] PeterThoeny: just a comment [12:39] ArthurClemens: Are we talking about a period of about 2 weeks? [12:39] PeterThoeny: the reason why i push for the doc merge is to not lose contributions done by other folks [12:40] ArthurClemens: Did we reach agreement on what happens to the docs on twiki.org/TWiki? [12:40] PeterThoeny: it is impolite to simply delete the hundreds of doc fixes done on twiki.org on upgrading twiki.org to dakar [12:40] Lavr: Don't forget xmas, family, vacation stress at work, new year. Don't over-commit. [12:40] CDot: Peter, Lynnwood already did a topic-by-topic trawl of the docs to that end [12:41] PeterThoeny: well, my workday is already 14-16 hours a day (all together) [12:41] PeterThoeny: i know that lynwood did that [12:42] CDot: but? [12:42] PeterThoeny: he makked many as "Revised", e.g topic was significantly revised in Dakar making direct comparison to Cairo version difficult. [12:42] *** SvenDowideit has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:42] PeterThoeny: hence the work left to actually do teh work of merging [12:42] ArthurClemens: Sven, we are talking about the documention process. [12:43] PeterThoeny: which is the timeconsuming part [12:43] SvenDowideit: ah [12:43] PeterThoeny: hi sven! [12:43] SvenDowideit: holla :) [12:43] ArthurClemens: The idea was offered to create a 'Cairo' web for the older TWiki docs. [12:43] PeterThoeny: that is a good idea [12:43] CDot: I find it hard to believe that there is 40 hours work remaining on the few docs that were revised for Dakar [12:43] PeterThoeny: but something else [12:44] PeterThoeny: the "cairo" doc web should be plain cairo docs [12:44] PeterThoeny: not the contribs done since then [12:44] SvenDowideit: y [12:44] SvenDowideit: definatly [12:44] PeterThoeny: hence the current TWiki web on twiki.org is not the cairo doc web [12:44] ArthurClemens: Wouldn't a separate Cairo doc web make the merging easier? [12:44] SvenDowideit: i have an idea that i want to explore anyway [12:45] terceiro: maybe the TWiki web should be always the next versions's doc web [12:45] CDot: SvenDowideit: see email for log [12:45] SvenDowideit: thanks CDot [12:45] CDot: terceiro: the trouble with that is that it breaks when there are multiple branches [12:45] PeterThoeny: restructuring the doc process is another subject [12:46] PeterThoeny: an important one [12:46] PeterThoeny: but not relevant for the purpose of this meeting [12:46] SvenDowideit: personally i thing we should have one docco web on twiki.org per release / branch, and that they are read only. [12:46] terceiro: CDot, PeterThoeny: ok [12:46] PeterThoeny: of organizing dakar release [12:46] SvenDowideit: but that we should write an annotation / editing plugin [12:47] PeterThoeny: that sounds like a good idea [12:47] Lavr: Read only web is the murder of the Wiki way. [12:47] SvenDowideit: no [12:47] SvenDowideit: its not Lavr [12:47] PeterThoeny: also useful for twiki world domination ;-) [12:47] CDot: ok; checkpoint. What we have arrived at so far, is that Peter wants to do another 40 hours work, over an unspecified period, before he will accept that the release is ready to go. [12:47] CDot: correct? [12:47] PeterThoeny: correct [12:48] SvenDowideit: buti should expand on the idea on codev soon [12:48] PeterThoeny: actually, not unspecified time [12:48] PeterThoeny: we should shoot for a 01 jan 2006 release [12:48] PeterThoeny: a nice number [12:48] SvenDowideit: can't we go for a 2005 release? [12:48] SvenDowideit: as 2 'years' between drinks is terrible [12:49] Lavr: I would like to talk bug arrival rate before we settle on a release date. [12:49] PeterThoeny: we would if i work 36 hours a day ;-) [12:49] *** Lynnwood has joined #twiki_dakar. [12:49] PeterThoeny: no, more serously [12:49] ArthurClemens: Lynnwood is coming [12:49] PeterThoeny: i think it is better not to release around xmas [12:49] PeterThoeny: because there is little attention span [12:49] Lynnwood: Hey there folks. My sincere apologies!!! I got stranded on the ski mountain with a flat tire [12:50] PeterThoeny: more impact if we release in teh first few days of january [12:50] PeterThoeny: everyone fresh at work [12:50] Lavr: Hy Lynnwood and thanks for the initiative. [12:50] PeterThoeny: wondering what's new [12:50] ArthurClemens: Let's not make this a big point. [12:50] PeterThoeny: hi lynwood, welcome here! [12:50] Lynnwood: could anymore email the a copy of log to catch up? [12:50] CDot: I really, really, really, strongly, want a 2005 release [12:50] Lynnwood: lynnwood@skyloom.com [12:50] CDot: a whole year without a release *stinks* [12:50] Lynnwood: or maybe just copy and paste into a irc to me [12:51] PeterThoeny: ok i mail it now [12:51] ArthurClemens: We need to talk about releasing more quickly another time [12:51] CDot: right [12:52] ArthurClemens: Lynnwood, the question is: could you run through the docs another time with Peter to make them final? [12:52] Lynnwood: absolutely [12:53] Lynnwood: ok [12:53] ArthurClemens: How is your time the next week/weeks? [12:53] CDot: and that makes it ok? [12:53] SvenDowideit: yes, and we are a laughing stock because of it [12:54] SvenDowideit: oss wise [12:54] ArthurClemens: Come on, we are a small developer group [12:54] PeterThoeny: you can laugh at it oss wise [12:54] Lynnwood: I can make some time this week [12:54] SvenDowideit: thats true, but does not change the fact that in the oss world thats too long [12:54] SvenDowideit: correct [12:54] *** MichaelDaum_ is now known as MichaelDaum. [12:55] SvenDowideit: thats why i keep acting like a pain [12:55] PeterThoeny: actually, corporations do not want too frequent upgrades [12:55] PeterThoeny: that is what oss folks like to work with [12:55] MichaelDaum: (kids are sleeping) [12:55] ArthurClemens: Peter and Lynnwood, I would like to have a monitor how things are going 7 days from now. [12:55] CDot: ok, here's an alternative proposal. [12:56] Lynnwood: ArthurClemens - sounds good [12:56] CDot: Let's just keep releasing betas [12:56] CDot: Lavr: spot on, that's my experience as well [12:57] PeterThoeny: that is the idea of automated upgrades [12:57] ArthurClemens: Are we talking about betas or about dot dot releases? [12:57] SvenDowideit: ArthurClemens, in the end its just a label for the same thing [12:57] CDot: PeterThoeny: I don't know the cisco model (never dealt with them directly myself) [12:57] Lynnwood: I agree in general about focusing more on frequent betas but I think it's still worthwhile getting out a Dakar soon - just becuase we said we would. [12:58] Lavr: Dakar will be a big one. We should plan a patch release 2 months after to close all the bugs that will arrive once Dakar is exposed to users, lusers and PHBs. [12:58] CDot: ok [12:58] ArthurClemens: So Dakar = TWiki4.0 ? [12:58] SvenDowideit: i agree that we should plan a service pack for dakar [12:59] Lynnwood: service pack in a month or two is good [12:59] PeterThoeny: a service pack is a sensible thing to do [12:59] SvenDowideit: not publicly [12:59] Lynnwood: It just makes sense to provide patch for bugs that will inevitably show up after release. [12:59] SvenDowideit: (i mean i agree with Lavr ) [13:00] SvenDowideit: y [13:01] SvenDowideit: i'm suggesting its too late.. [13:01] Lavr: Each time I spend 2-3 hours testing I find 3-4 bugs. If I demo Dakar at work we always find a compatibility bug. Something that does not work on old topics. [13:02] Lynnwood: how about the "official" release on the 1st but have our internal release a week before. [13:02] PeterThoeny: no, don't look from the developers perspective, please consider the marketing side of the release [13:02] Lavr: So power testing and fixing is needed. Can we make it for 1st of January. Yes. If more starts testing. [13:02] PeterThoeny: s/release/release timing/ [13:03] SvenDowideit: yes, please consider the marketing we need to attract open source developers [13:03] SvenDowideit: the delays are killing that [13:03] SvenDowideit: wrt oss it is [13:03] ArthurClemens: I would like to hear how much work is involved in other things [13:03] Lavr: Well. Lately the bug arrival rate as decreased a little and it mainly on Wysiwyg. [13:04] CDot: we are already burning the XMas holidays as "get familiar" time for upgraders [13:04] PeterThoeny: on markeing: i am basically ready [13:04] PeterThoeny: i got a good testimonial from novell for the press release [13:04] ArthurClemens: Michael: good point. The homepage needs a makeover [13:04] Lynnwood: MichaelDaum - I agree with you but I can't see redoing twiki.org before release! [13:05] MichaelDaum: can we just _relaunch a fresh twiki.org [13:05] PeterThoeny: back to release date please [13:05] PeterThoeny: do we agree on a 01 jan 2005 release date? [13:05] SvenDowideit: no PeterThoeny we don't [13:06] PeterThoeny: please be realistic [13:07] CDot: yes, symbolic [13:07] SvenDowideit: like the patch tuesday microsoft have [13:07] PeterThoeny: 01 sep 2004 to 24 dec 2005 [13:08] SvenDowideit: as from an oss marketing angle [13:08] MichaelDaum: can we get the date out of the release name , please [13:08] SvenDowideit: its hugly different [13:08] CDot: Lavr: good question [13:09] terceiro: at least for my users (and people in Brazil in general), user interface i18n is a great reason ro upgrade [13:09] ArthurClemens: Peter, do you think 31 dec is bad for publicity? People will read the news the day later anyway. [13:09] CDot: Security, Internationalisation, mod_perl [13:10] SvenDowideit: and configure, registration, sessions(for admin) [13:10] CDot: I was trying to summarise ;-) [13:10] MichaelDaum: security, security, security [13:10] SvenDowideit: y, which are different depending on who it is [13:10] ArthurClemens: So, we have a top 10! [13:11] Lavr: If you have Cairo you do not care for configure. Registration is a good one. Sessions was already in Cairo in a plugin. [13:11] Lynnwood: Some speak to admins, some to uses. [13:12] PeterThoeny: for the press release we need a bullet list of top 5 features [13:12] MichaelDaum: hierarchical webs [13:12] Lavr: If I don't upgrade I don't need configure- [13:12] CDot: so far we established 40 hours of Peter and Lynnwood [13:12] Lynnwood: sounds good. [13:13] Lynnwood: ? [13:13] * CDot could care a farthing for hierarchical webs [13:13] CDot: cound'nt [13:14] ArthurClemens: What else we have that holds up the release? Peter? [13:14] Lynnwood: not worth [13:15] Lynnwood: there some personal preference involved [13:15] MichaelDaum: but there's more in the marketing corner [13:15] terceiro: thanks, god [13:16] PeterThoeny: ok, shall we move to other things that need to be done for the release? [13:16] terceiro: PeterThoeny: please [13:16] MichaelDaum: yes [13:17] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/AddWysiwygPluginToDakar [13:17] ArthurClemens: What is the status, CDot? [13:17] PeterThoeny: since many other wikis already ship with a wysiwyg editor [13:18] CDot: I cannot guarantee anything stable before then [13:18] CDot: however, it is continuously improving [13:18] PeterThoeny: since this is a plugin it can be upgraded easily once a stable version is available [13:19] PeterThoeny: crawford, what are you concerns about not shipping it with dakar? [13:20] Lavr: When my users ask me about next TWiki version all they ask about is Wysiwyg. Noone really ask for anything else. [13:20] CDot: possibly even lost content is a risk [13:21] SvenDowideit: Lavr, that was similar with cairo [13:21] MichaelDaum: burned area if it does not hold up [13:21] SvenDowideit: there were few 'user' desired things then too [13:21] SvenDowideit: but for the power user [13:21] PeterThoeny: or lost forever? [13:21] CDot: if it doesn't hold up, everything is burned [13:21] CDot: nothing is lost forever [13:23] MichaelDaum: but why not upgrade and install it on top? [13:23] CDot: Lavr: thank you, good point [13:23] SvenDowideit: doesn't Wysiwyg work on cairo? [13:24] SvenDowideit: so Lavr's problem is solved :) [13:24] ArthurClemens: We can add Wysiwyg in the killer top 10, but on the download page offer is as alpha as separate download. [13:24] CDot: ArthurClemens: that seems reasonable to me [13:25] PeterThoeny: no, not like this [13:25] PeterThoeny: twiki gets downlaoded 250 times a day [13:25] CDot: anyway, there is a dreadful Firefox bug, that I can't guarantee to fix for Dec 31 [13:25] PeterThoeny: only a handfull will install additional plugins [13:25] Lavr: The plugin is fine TODAY featurewise. It is fixing bugs so topic are not currupted that is the issue. [13:26] PeterThoeny: if we ship without i can't even sell that as a key part of dakar in the press release [13:26] SvenDowideit: the expectation will be the same [13:26] ArthurClemens: We need a welcome page for the download, with the killer top 10 that people will see once installed. They will get the link to the alpha download there. [13:26] SvenDowideit: ie, its in the release, so it works.. [13:26] CDot: caveat emptor [13:27] Lavr: And I still don't see the point of releasing Dakar without WYSIWYG. [13:27] SvenDowideit: experienced twikiers of course know better [13:27] SvenDowideit: y, and last i looked alot of twiki's success is due to the plugins [13:28] CDot: yes [13:29] SvenDowideit: and releasing often is one requirement [13:29] MichaelDaum: dakar is a major step towards TWikiApplications [13:29] SvenDowideit: as i will stop pushing this barrow [13:29] CDot: we need more devs, IMHO [13:30] SvenDowideit: y [13:30] SvenDowideit: ah, you should though [13:30] ArthurClemens: voting for what? [13:30] CDot: read back [13:30] CDot: your question [13:31] CDot: "Do we have some agreement on disabling Wysiwyg by default, or do we offer it as a separate download?" [13:31] SvenDowideit: right now,its clear to oss devs that there is always a large foggy delay between doing dev work and a release [13:31] ArthurClemens: ah ok [13:31] SvenDowideit: and so they simply stay away [13:31] SvenDowideit: like with cairo [13:31] ArthurClemens: So voting on which part of the question? [13:31] Lavr: CDOT. Just your evaluation. DO you need 2 weeks, 1 months, 2 months to get Wysiwyg stable? [13:32] CDot: I month [13:32] Lynnwood: I'd go with 12/31 simply because CDot - who has been the lead developer for Dakar - is requesting it. [13:32] CDot: I am out until 22nd Dec, back for one day, out until 28th, back for one day, out until 3rd Jan..... [13:33] PeterThoeny: we could shoot for 01 feb 2006 [13:33] SvenDowideit: ok, so you basically don't see getting more devs involved as important [13:33] Lynnwood: imo, he's earned enough "karma" in the past year to get that. [13:34] SvenDowideit: also [13:34] CDot: if it is really important to them, then that;'s what they will do [13:34] MichaelDaum: CDot, doing a release in Dec 2005 is not making TheSplash: bad timing [13:34] PeterThoeny: this is really a bad timing [13:35] PeterThoeny: i will not go for this [13:35] SvenDowideit: ok [13:35] SvenDowideit: peter, we're at an impass [13:35] Lavr: Well. If we release Dakar new year - and schedule a Dakar bug fix update including WYSIWYG - announced - that sounds like a good compromize. [13:35] Lynnwood: I think we're giving a little too much weight to the "big splash" aspect of this release. [13:35] SvenDowideit: me too [13:35] Lynnwood: ANY release will renew attention. [13:35] CDot: right; witness the interest in the beta [13:36] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, if you want to run the marketing campain as though you are a private company with paid developers [13:36] CDot: I really have to go very soon; can we finish the list of "what has to be done" please? [13:36] SvenDowideit: then you will end up having to actually pay them [13:36] Lavr: I know from my Motion project - if I release a beta 100 people download it. If I make a real release - 100 people download it - PER DAY. People are afraid of betas. [13:37] SvenDowideit: otherwise the focus needs to take oss devs into account more [13:37] MichaelDaum: Lavr, so we need to release alot more [13:37] CDot: PeterThoeny: why is 31 dec bad timing? [13:37] PeterThoeny: we all agree that we need to relase more [13:37] SvenDowideit: and with less well polished stuff [13:37] PeterThoeny: at least monthly betas [13:37] PeterThoeny: better by-weekly [13:38] Lavr: Big releases rarely. And easy to upgrade releases that can be "patched" often is the best OSS model. [13:38] ArthurClemens: Peter? [13:38] Lynnwood: as long as they are easily applied. e.g. having archive that includes _only_ changed files. [13:38] CDot: PeterThoeny: why is 31 dec bad timing? [13:38] MichaelDaum: every fix should be released as a minor one [13:38] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny: why is 31 dec bad timing? [13:39] Lynnwood: easy guys. give him time to think :-) [13:39] Lynnwood: and type... [13:39] PeterThoeny: we can release on 31 dec and label it as TWikiRelease2006x01x01x8954 [13:39] MichaelDaum: uh [13:39] SvenDowideit: no, the label needs to say the same [13:39] SvenDowideit: otherwise its obviously not a 2005 release [13:39] CDot: why on earth would we do that? the whole point is to release in 2005! Why then label it 2006????? [13:40] PeterThoeny: i do not want to change the release convention of 01 Somemonth Someyear [13:40] SvenDowideit: while everyone else does? [13:40] CDot: is that it? Is that the only reason? [13:40] ArthurClemens: Why not? [13:40] PeterThoeny: in the past we released mid month and labelled the release 01 Sep Someyear [13:40] SvenDowideit: infact everyone else wants to remove the date totally? [13:40] CDot: so let's label it 1 Dec 2005! [13:41] SvenDowideit: y, and i wasn't happy about it [13:41] MichaelDaum: no, please dont [13:41] CDot: why not? [13:41] MichaelDaum: call it twiki-4.0 (dakar) [13:41] SvenDowideit: no, its confusing to use dates, and then not actually use the date that it was released on [13:41] CDot: and why have we just spent a year installing TWiki 20050904? [13:41] SvenDowideit: twiki 4 would be a huge improvement [13:41] Lynnwood: The dates have been confusing in the past. [13:42] MichaelDaum: exactly [13:42] Lynnwood: as they didn't match the actual dates. [13:42] CDot: which - if I'm still sober enough to parse it - is not the 1st of the month [13:42] ArthurClemens: I am for twiki-4.0. You can see the dot releases and the dot dot releases. [13:42] SvenDowideit: y, its actually twiki 3.3 [13:42] Lavr: If the release name is a date and it is released on another date - then that release scheme is more confusing than smart. [13:42] SvenDowideit: y [13:42] Lynnwood: So why not take this occasion to switch to some number as Sven suggests. [13:42] CDot: I totally agree - I want the dat *out* of the release name [13:43] PeterThoeny: this is a point where we disagree [13:43] MichaelDaum: yes, please [13:43] PeterThoeny: we do not need to solve that now [13:43] MichaelDaum: I'm all with it [13:43] PeterThoeny: this is not holding back the release [13:43] SvenDowideit: PeterThoeny, there are alot of things where everyone seems to dissagree with you [13:43] PeterThoeny: lets focus on what is holding us back [13:43] MichaelDaum: this makes clear what 4.1 is [13:43] MichaelDaum: if we can delay stuff for 4.1 then we are easier now [13:43] SvenDowideit: and this is a huge barrier to oss devs [13:44] MichaelDaum: can we also see the date for 4.1? [13:44] PeterThoeny: on point 2, wysiwygplugin in release or not, where do we stand? [13:44] MichaelDaum: not int 4.0 [13:44] CDot: see what I thought Peter and I had agreed in http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseNamingConvention [13:45] CDot: (we hadn't agreed, but that's what I though we had agreed) [13:45] Lavr: You cannot release Wysiwyg 1st Jan. If there is a release 1 Jan it should be default without and with an encouragement (with warning) to try the Wysiwyg plugin in non production environments. We need more to test it to get it stable and ready for 1st Feb. [13:46] SvenDowideit: i didn't like it as its hard to tell the difference between 4.0 and 4.1 unless you remember magic numbers [13:46] CDot: Lavr: that's my viewpoint as well [13:46] SvenDowideit: thats why the build no isn't normally to prominenet in releases [13:46] ArthurClemens: Peter, we haven't heard an argument for keeping the old naming scheme. [13:48] PeterThoeny: please read TWikiReleaseNamingConvention [13:48] MichaelDaum: this is a long topic ... any short version? [13:48] PeterThoeny: "A naming like TWikiReleaseDakar7954 for a production release is developer centric. My goal was always to use a release name that is user centric, hence the date in the name and no code name." [13:48] SvenDowideit: i can't see anything that supports the date naming [13:48] SvenDowideit: especially over 4.1 [13:49] PeterThoeny: "A TWiki admin is more interested in knowing how old a release is, and where a release is in relation to other releases; (s)he does not care what the code name was for a release, and does not know that Cairo comes after Beijing. Hence the date in the release topic and package name." [13:49] ArthurClemens: We agree that we need to name more user centric. [13:49] PeterThoeny: "The date serves as an externally used release number. The internal build & release number can be based on the code name and SVN number." [13:49] MichaelDaum: Peter, consider car naming [13:49] ArthurClemens: These data can go into the documentation page. [13:50] MichaelDaum: yes [13:50] Lavr: The current date naming is confusing - and in some cases dangerous. If I downloaded Cairo in October - And I see there is a security update calles 04Sep2005 I think I am OK because I downloaded mine after 4th of September. We have seen many confused newbies here on IRC. [13:50] MichaelDaum: every other oss project has a release scheme based on the major.minor.patch pattern [13:51] SvenDowideit: well, most anyway [13:51] CDot: hold on; if this is going to degenerate into a session explaining to Peter why he is wrong, then count me out. So far he has been totally inflexible in this discussion, and I can't see anything here that has not been argued already. So let's focus on what needs to be done to generate a release, please. [13:51] MichaelDaum: this is jsut a point of growing up [13:51] SvenDowideit: y, sadly i agree with CDot [13:52] CDot: so far we have 40 hours work on docs [13:52] MichaelDaum: delay stuff for a minor release, that's why we discuss the naming scheme, please dont forget that [13:52] PeterThoeny: ok, i am the young kid [13:52] CDot: can we have agreement on wyswiyg please? [13:52] PeterThoeny: lets focus on the release [13:52] ArthurClemens: To conclude: the majority of people here think that TWiki 4.0 (dakar) is more user centric. [13:52] Lavr: I am not religiously against the date versions as long the date is the date it is released. [13:52] SvenDowideit: without selling to oss devs, my interest is minimal too [13:52] ArthurClemens: Wysiwyg [13:52] MichaelDaum: I vote: no [13:53] Lynnwood: I vote no basically - or Arthur's earlier proposal. [13:53] CDot: reminder: the question was: (21:44:53) PeterThoeny: on point 2, wysiwygplugin in release or not, where do we stand? [13:53] PeterThoeny: i see a danger in voting here [13:53] Lavr: We should commit a bug update release on 1st Feb 2006 and introduce WYSIWYG with that. [13:54] PeterThoeny: if we want to vote we need also makrketing persons and end users, not just developers [13:54] Lynnwood: let's not think of it as voting. we have no agreement of majority rules. [13:54] ArthurClemens: Peter, what do you see? [13:54] CDot: PeterThoeny: the people on this call are the only ones who do any work, so why is there a danger? We decide. [13:54] MichaelDaum: I agree with Lavr [13:54] CDot: there *are* no marketing people [13:54] Lynnwood: it's really a consensus. the real question is: do you want to block an agreement. [13:55] PeterThoeny: consensus is if all agree [13:56] Lynnwood: In a consensus process, it the general will of the group as whole becomes apparent, the burden on the minority to either go along or try to sway. [13:56] Lynnwood: agree to move forward. [13:56] SvenDowideit: see current eu discussions for a great eg [13:56] Lynnwood: consensus is _not_ unanimous agreement. that is very rare. [13:57] MichaelDaum: better any consensus than none (T.Blair) [13:57] SvenDowideit: and its not a singular ruler either [13:57] SvenDowideit: ok, left field q. [13:57] Lavr: I have voiced by oppinion and have already moved my proposals towards what I think is consensus. I do not think we are that far apart from a compromise and concensus. [13:57] PeterThoeny: ok, back to plugin or not [13:57] SvenDowideit: it sounds like we have 2 'products' needed [13:57] SvenDowideit: one for oss, and one for marketing to companies [13:58] Lynnwood: y Lavr - you've demonstrated good consensus spirit there. [13:58] SvenDowideit: for oss we need lots of actual releases, but some bugs are ok [13:58] SvenDowideit: for big companies, no real bugs, and fewer releases [13:58] PeterThoeny: sven: to be, betas are the production releases of oss folks [13:58] SvenDowideit: not good enough unfortunalty [13:58] * CDot is rapidly running out of time on this call [13:58] Lavr: We all have Lynnwood. And you guys are always great to chat with. That is why I chose Twiki in the first place :-) [13:58] PeterThoeny: that assumes that the quality of betas is "good enough" [13:58] PeterThoeny: which it is [13:58] SvenDowideit: as oss ppl ignore betas [13:59] CDot: please get back to the topic [13:59] SvenDowideit: its a marketing thing, but marketing at oss devs [13:59] CDot: what needs to be done to release Dakar? [13:59] PeterThoeny: ok, ship the plugin or not [13:59] SvenDowideit: ok, sorry PeterThoeny can we continue after CDot is gone? [13:59] CDot: majority says "no, ship in Feb" [13:59] SvenDowideit: no for me, until the developer / sponsor is happy with it [14:00] SvenDowideit: as pride and reputation is the only currency twiki can pay devs with [14:00] PeterThoeny: that does not solve the competitive necessity question [14:00] ArthurClemens: There have been several options offered: (1) list in the top 10 + offer as separate download; (2) include in release, but communicate clearly that it is an alpha and not meant for production sites [14:00] PeterThoeny: unless we delay dakar to 01 feb 2006 [14:00] CDot: it is open source software [14:00] PeterThoeny: (which i do not want) [14:01] Lynnwood: but competitive necessity doesn't directly relate to the release schedule. It can be managed. [14:01] CDot: I am not blocking anyone else fixing the last few bugs [14:01] PeterThoeny: i am all for (2) [14:01] Lynnwood: O [14:01] PeterThoeny: "include in release, but communicate clearly that it is an alpha and not meant for production sites" [14:02] Lynnwood: I'm sorry - where is "2"? [14:02] Lynnwood: ah. thanks [14:02] CDot: I don't see (2) as an option. It will be assumed to be 100%. [14:02] Lynnwood: CDot - not if we explicity say what peter said there. [14:02] ArthurClemens: CDot: I am not so sure about that either [14:02] CDot: then ship it *disabled* [14:03] CDot: as I said; caveat emptor [14:03] PeterThoeny: it will be labelled as alpha in the press release and should be labelled as such in the plugin topic [14:03] Lynnwood: that would be wise for an alpha feature anyway. [14:03] ArthurClemens: yes [14:03] CDot: but do *not* ship it as a default component [14:03] ArthurClemens: (disabled) [14:03] CDot: i.e. enabled [14:03] MichaelDaum: is that looking professional? [14:03] PeterThoeny: i see that we seem to agree to ship with dakar, label it as alpha, and disable it [14:04] Lynnwood: yes [14:04] CDot: yes [14:04] PeterThoeny: good [14:04] ArthurClemens: ok [14:04] Lynnwood: awesome [14:04] PeterThoeny: excellent! :-) [14:04] CDot: what else? [14:04] MichaelDaum: not blocking [14:04] CDot: what else? [14:04] ArthurClemens: Lets ponder a while on our past achievements :-) [14:04] CDot: what else? [14:04] MichaelDaum: the header art [14:04] Lynnwood: an honorable position MichaelDaum [14:05] CDot: what else? [14:05] * CDot badly needs another beer [14:05] MichaelDaum: we need to polish the look a little, still [14:05] * Lynnwood needs his first. [14:05] PeterThoeny: ok, we talked about point 1 (docs), point 2 (wysiwyg) [14:06] PeterThoeny: point 3: missing classicskin [14:06] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1190 [14:06] MichaelDaum: ArthurClemens, what about the header art we discussed on modernizing pattern [14:06] CDot: Lynnwood: can you please take over the duty of logging this discussion somewhere public? thx [14:06] ArthurClemens: This is waiting for feedback [14:06] Lynnwood: CDot - yes [14:06] MichaelDaum: ArthurClemens, put it in and see what people say [14:06] Lynnwood: I was going to ask for suggestions where to post it. [14:06] ArthurClemens: Peter, more items? [14:06] Lynnwood: Perhaps one of our private installations for now. [14:07] Lynnwood: or on DEVELOP [14:07] terceiro: I have one item: finishing all current translations [14:07] MichaelDaum: ntwiki [14:07] MichaelDaum: yes [14:07] ArthurClemens: point 4: translations [14:07] PeterThoeny: i have a few smaller items [14:07] PeterThoeny: perhaps lets ask participants for their "must have" [14:08] ArthurClemens: Lets divide our time in 10 minutes each, max. [14:08] CDot: what remains to be done on translations? [14:08] SvenDowideit: rest - i'm working on the docs for it now [14:08] ArthurClemens: Dutch needs to be done for a great part [14:08] SvenDowideit: as in rest_cgi [14:08] ArthurClemens: (and tested) [14:08] terceiro: CDot: people need to complete the translations [14:08] PeterThoeny: point 5: rest [14:08] CDot: SvenDowideit: there are no open bugs for rest? [14:09] MichaelDaum: mod_perl testing [14:09] SvenDowideit: not that i could find, but i will make sure [14:09] CDot: how is this being tracked? Why is it suddenly a requirement? [14:09] PeterThoeny: sven: what about the security question? [14:09] SvenDowideit: i've applied the patch raf made [14:09] PeterThoeny: e.g. plugins need to declare rest-enabled functions [14:09] SvenDowideit: all that ccrb required was better docs [14:09] CDot: PeterThoeny: the patch deals with that [14:09] CDot: SvenDowideit: ok [14:09] PeterThoeny: ok, good [14:10] ArthurClemens: Is rest discussed? [14:10] PeterThoeny: look like [14:10] SvenDowideit: i simply need it to do the ajax wrk i've got [14:10] SvenDowideit: y [14:10] ArthurClemens: Peter, classic skin? [14:10] PeterThoeny: is rest a selling point for dakar? [14:10] CDot: no [14:10] CDot: it's too geeky [14:10] ArthurClemens: What can you do with it? [14:11] CDot: please can we concentrate on what needs doing? Whimper? [14:11] Lavr: Will the code (excluding Wysiwyg) be stable enough end of this month? With stable I mainly mean that users can upgrade from Cairo to Dakar and 99.9% of all topics shows satisfactory. [14:11] PeterThoeny: arthur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REST [14:12] ArthurClemens: will read later, thanks [14:12] CDot: Lavr: that depends on whether you uncover any more bugs or not [14:12] Lavr: I continue testing natually. [14:12] ArthurClemens: The list was: (3) classic skin, (4) translations [14:12] PeterThoeny: (5) rest [14:13] PeterThoeny: (why do I see a hand?) [14:13] CDot: unfotunately, I cannot continue fixing, so any requirement or urgent level bugs will either be fixed by someone else, or the release cannot go. [14:13] Lynnwood: quick note: I'm juggling some family stuff. I'll be tracking conversation here but in an out a bit for next few minutes. [14:13] PeterThoeny: meant this: ( 5 ) rest [14:13] Lavr: I think we need to get more large installations to try the new beta 5 against their existing webs. [14:13] MichaelDaum: can we switch part of twiki.org to dakar? [14:14] PeterThoeny: on rest, i do not see a reason why not to take it into dakar as long as security is ok [14:14] terceiro: are we in a release freeze or not? :) [14:14] Lavr: I have a SVN installation running at Motorola now with a selection of webs and I have asked the biggest TWiki geeks to use it whenever they have time. Many of my error reports come from there. [14:14] PeterThoeny: michael: i think dakar is now ready for twiki.org [14:14] terceiro: I mean, feature freeze [14:14] PeterThoeny: missing part was installpassword [14:14] CDot: terceiro: rest was already passed by CCRB [14:15] terceiro: CDot: ok then [14:15] Lavr: Twiki.org is a good idea. That is for sure a large installation. [14:15] CDot: it's just running late due to SvenDowideit's hopeless inefficiency ;-) [14:15] SvenDowideit: i though raf was doing it [14:15] CDot: exactly [14:15] CDot: >:-) [14:15] PeterThoeny: on (4) anything to add? [14:15] PeterThoeny: anybody needs help from other? [14:16] PeterThoeny: item 940 : translations [14:16] terceiro: PeterThoeny: I'll mail all people that have already translated to complete their translations [14:16] PeterThoeny: s/940/(4)/ [14:16] terceiro: ArthurClemens: this means _string freeze_ ;) [14:16] CDot: we need to have tracking items in bugs web, at Requirement level, fo all items discussed here as blocking [14:16] CDot: Lynnwood: can you make sure that happens please? [14:16] ArthurClemens: terceiro: understood [14:17] terceiro: ArthurClemens: great [14:17] ArthurClemens: Wait: I want to have one more thing: Show menu, Hide menu [14:17] CDot: ArthurClemens: my gut says "no" [14:17] CDot: too late, too risky [14:18] PeterThoeny: arthur: is this a new point? [14:18] Lavr: Feature freeze! [14:18] ArthurClemens: ok, TWiki4.1 then :-) [14:18] CDot: yep, thx [14:18] PeterThoeny: what other "must have" points? [14:18] ArthurClemens: What items about classic skin? [14:18] CDot: ? [14:19] PeterThoeny: i do not see the classicskin in the twiki web [14:19] CDot: because it is now a contrib [14:19] ArthurClemens: I see Item1190 [14:19] PeterThoeny: it was there previously, but with an old screenshot [14:19] ArthurClemens: That is a doc update [14:20] PeterThoeny: it's not in today's beta [14:20] CDot: ah - it is missing from the MANIFEST [14:20] CDot: it is not in the MANIFEST for ClassicSkinContrib [14:21] PeterThoeny: some more related issues on classicskin [14:21] CDot: hum; yes it is [14:21] CDot: hmmmm [14:21] PeterThoeny: Item1190, Item736 [14:21] ArthurClemens: Problem is, there is no maintainer of that skin [14:21] Lavr: I just tried ?skin=classic. Bottom menu is broken. [14:22] PeterThoeny: there are many issues with the classicskin [14:22] PeterThoeny: i18n is missing [14:22] MichaelDaum: in Item1190: the natskin is not part of the release [14:22] PeterThoeny: login/logout is missing [14:22] PeterThoeny: screenshots are old [14:22] PeterThoeny: and probably many new dakar elements are missing [14:22] ArthurClemens: For sure [14:22] SvenDowideit: so we should drop it as unmaintained [14:23] terceiro: SvenDowideit: that's why I would say [14:23] PeterThoeny: not all needs to be fixed for dakar [14:23] PeterThoeny: i18n is deferred (ok) [14:23] PeterThoeny: it is not a question to drop classic skin [14:23] ArthurClemens: Screenshot is important (no robot), but that is docs I assume [14:23] CDot: Lavr: I just tried http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1190?skin=classic - bottom menu looks fine to me.... [14:24] SvenDowideit: then you'll simply have to fix it [14:24] PeterThoeny: if you add ?skin=asdfasdfasd you will end up in classic skin [14:24] CDot: no you won't [14:24] MichaelDaum: I got the impression that fixing classicskin will delay the release. [14:24] PeterThoeny: the skin is also used as a base for new skins (at least it is documented as such) [14:24] SvenDowideit: personally i can't see any reason to keep it [14:24] CDot: you will end up in the default templates, which happen to be a copy of classic skin, but should not be referred to as such [14:24] CDot: since they will be simplified over time [14:24] Lavr: Cdot: http://merlin.lavrsen.dk/dakar/bin/view/Main/WebHome?skin=classic [14:25] PeterThoeny: sven: you stated earlier that you will work with the classicskin enabled [14:25] PeterThoeny: what happened to that? [14:25] CDot: proper "ClassicSkin" is in the contrib [14:25] SvenDowideit: i did it, and it worked well enough [14:25] SvenDowideit: and i fixed some stuff [14:25] SvenDowideit: but without a true maintainer, it just gets too crufty to release [14:25] CDot: Lavr: looks like you have old templates [14:25] PeterThoeny: i think there is a low hanging fruit to ship classic [14:26] SvenDowideit: and thus i suggest we remove it and focus on doing one thing well [14:26] PeterThoeny: it dos not need to be perfect, just workable [14:26] CDot: Lavr: I removed the last %_'s a few days ago [14:26] ArthurClemens: But is it enough to include login/logout? [14:26] Lavr: Cdot: Maybe I need to rerun pseudo-install [14:26] PeterThoeny: sanity check needed [14:26] PeterThoeny: but it seems like this is ok according to sven [14:26] PeterThoeny: new screen shots [14:26] SvenDowideit: it was a few months ago [14:26] PeterThoeny: login/logout [14:27] SvenDowideit: and i figured login / logout wasn't needed either [14:27] SvenDowideit: as no one seems to use classic enough to maintain it [14:27] SvenDowideit: (again, oss dev pov) [14:27] MichaelDaum: (qual pov) [14:28] PeterThoeny: as i said, i do not see an issue with shipping a buggy classic skin, it just needs to work somewhat [14:28] SvenDowideit: why ship it at all [14:28] SvenDowideit: it only diverts attention [14:29] CDot: why not? it's there as a contrib, just leave it [14:29] ArthurClemens: 1 minute left for this point [14:29] PeterThoeny: there are probably some users who do not want / can't use css based skins [14:29] CDot: in a spirit of compatibility [14:29] Lavr: CDot: Pseudo-install did not fix things. Classic bottom many still broken. We will have to investigate tomorrow [14:29] ArthurClemens: I will add the login/logout [14:29] PeterThoeny: twiki.org has some users who enabled classic skin [14:30] CDot: Lavr: k [14:30] ArthurClemens: Peter: recently? [14:30] SvenDowideit: but without developers who work on it, its just gathering cruft [14:30] SvenDowideit: which is worse to a dev [14:30] PeterThoeny: arthur: not recently [14:31] ArthurClemens: I think the most important things on classic have been mentioned. [14:31] MichaelDaum: I even agree more with SvenDowideit looking at 4.x releases with more template refactoring [14:31] PeterThoeny: related to classicskin, mentioned in http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1190 [14:31] PeterThoeny: - plainskin docs [14:31] PeterThoeny: - natskin question [14:32] MichaelDaum: why are the sceenshots too big for it? [14:32] PeterThoeny: develop.twiki.org shows natskin [14:32] ArthurClemens: Please continue the discussion in the topic [14:33] PeterThoeny: small screenshot should be 600x130, linked to larger screenshot of arbitrary size [14:33] ArthurClemens: Translations have been mentioned [14:33] MichaelDaum: ok [14:33] ArthurClemens: (point 4) [14:33] PeterThoeny: yes, any help wanted on transaltions? [14:33] ArthurClemens: Swiss German? [14:34] CDot: Someone needs to work on Tibetan [14:34] ArthurClemens: Please someone have a look at English [14:34] ArthurClemens: Do we have point 6? [14:34] terceiro: English is the harder one :) [14:34] PeterThoeny: how about Rumantsch, the 4th swiss language? [14:34] CDot: we don;t have French, which is an issue [14:34] PeterThoeny: spoken by 1% of swiss population [14:35] Lynnwood: Hey guys - I'm really sorry. I'm being drawn away. Let me just mention some follow-up I'm planning. I'll post notes with summary of major points of conclusion (including questions still open) and follow-up actions. [14:35] PeterThoeny: oh, french [14:35] PeterThoeny: that is almost a must [14:35] SvenDowideit: how about we finish now, as i have to go move in more stuff [14:35] PeterThoeny: is someone working on it? [14:35] CDot: Lynnwood: don;t forget to create a log of this calkl [14:35] Lynnwood: yes the summary will include the raw log also. [14:35] ArthurClemens: Action point: we need to attract translators. [14:36] Lynnwood: or I should say the recond. [14:36] CDot: My only remaining point is this; whatever you are working on, PLEASE COMMUNICATE! [14:36] terceiro: PeterThoeny: AFAICT, there is no one working on a french translation [14:36] PeterThoeny: this is not a show stopper for release [14:36] CDot: It is really painful to sit staring at open items, unable to close them, with no status. [14:37] PeterThoeny: crawford, not sure if this is a new point, just woud like a clarification: [14:37] PeterThoeny: Item1025 Flooded with warn messages from misc plugins [14:37] CDot: CLassicSkin.txt disappeared due to an SVN problem on my machine. It's not in the release, but it is OK in the manifest now. [14:38] CDot: PeterThoeny: what is your question? [14:38] PeterThoeny: if a company has developed a plugin for inhouse use, wil they get warning messages if the plugin uses an deprecared api call? [14:39] MichaelDaum: yes [14:39] SvenDowideit: as they should [14:40] CDot: yes [14:40] SvenDowideit: it really nasty to have that sort of problem and not get told often [14:40] Lynnwood: The other item I'd like folks to consider if a regularly scheduled session like this is worthwhile. Not as long but regular schedule. [14:40] PeterThoeny: hmm, that is almost a point, but not for today [14:40] Lavr: When I put Dakar in production I will have a gigabyte or so per month saying... [14:40] Lavr: | 17 Dec 2005 - 23:28 | BlackListPlugin defines deprecated endRenderingHandler [14:40] Lynnwood: so later... [14:40] SvenDowideit: Lavr, can you fix it? [14:41] Lynnwood: and thanks to all for trying this out. [14:41] ArthurClemens: Thanks Lynnwood for setting this up. [14:41] SvenDowideit: Lynnwood, thanks for organising it, its been educational [14:41] MichaelDaum: endRenderingHandler is really easy to fix, Lavr give it a try ;) [14:41] CDot: Lavr: you are welcome to provide a patch [14:41] CDot: it's easy [14:41] Lavr: Yes. I will just comment out the line in the TWiki code that writes the warning >:-) [14:41] PeterThoeny: so this is point 6 then [14:41] ArthurClemens: Do we have an action list? [14:42] CDot: Laver: do you paint the tyres on your car black when the tread wears thin as well? [14:42] SvenDowideit: sounds like [14:42] Lavr: Last time I tried to Fix soe perl code on TWiki noone could find their bugs for two hours. [14:42] PeterThoeny: point 6: review Item1025 [14:43] Lavr: I am learning but I am still far :-) [14:43] ArthurClemens: MichaelDaum mentioned the header art - point 7? [14:43] MichaelDaum: yep [14:43] MichaelDaum: what about mod_perl testing [14:43] PeterThoeny: could you explain point 7? [14:43] * CDot has had enough [14:43] MichaelDaum: there's a bug item about that [14:43] CDot: sorry, gang, I really have to go [14:44] CDot: nice chatting to you [14:44] ArthurClemens: See ya, CDot [14:44] MichaelDaum: bye bye CDot [14:44] Lavr: Thanks CDot. For tonight and for 10000+ lines of code. [14:44] ArthurClemens: Point 7 = http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ModernizePatternSkin [14:44] *** CDot has left #twiki_dakar. [14:45] MichaelDaum: see also http://ntwiki.ethermage.net/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item959 [14:45] PeterThoeny: is that a showstopper for release? [14:46] Lavr: Item 959. I will shout FEATURE FREEZE again. [14:46] MichaelDaum: but the header art is just _not there_ in pattern. [14:46] MichaelDaum: and it is a low hanging fruit [14:47] MichaelDaum: ArthurClemens has made a nice proposal [14:47] ArthurClemens: Its the idea, the image can be worked on [14:47] Lavr: Each time we touch the PatternSkin we fight for days before it looks right in all browsers. [14:47] SvenDowideit: does low hanging include someone to do the work, and fix all the bugs before commiting [14:47] Lavr: I like the idea but it should be 1st Feb. [14:47] SvenDowideit: as i'm also yellin CODE FREEZE [14:48] PeterThoeny: seems like point 7 should be deferred [14:48] terceiro: I think so [14:48] Lavr: New year is two weeks from now. Bug fixing and documentation should be the only focus. I will even stop testing Wysiwyg the next 2 weeks. [14:48] MichaelDaum: polish is so important. sorry to mention it again [14:49] ArthurClemens: We also need something when twiki.org goes Dakar [14:49] ArthurClemens: Why not this next 2 weeks? [14:49] PeterThoeny: ok, i try to upgrade twiki.org between xmas and new years [14:49] ArthurClemens: Putting an image is not a code change [14:50] MichaelDaum: yep [14:50] ArthurClemens: It has been documented already [14:50] Lavr: No. But changing style sheets is often causing 2-3 new bugs. And Pattern looks good right now. [14:50] PeterThoeny: sorry, i am lost, waht is the discussion now? [14:51] ArthurClemens: Well, the header is bare bones [14:51] ArthurClemens: Changing style sheets - that has been the case with significant changes [14:52] ArthurClemens: This is a small change that has been documented [14:52] Lavr: Could it go in your Pattern cook book? [14:52] MichaelDaum: maybe you can convince the others if you are quick ;) [14:52] ArthurClemens: It is in there. [14:53] ArthurClemens: The question is: is this kind of image right? [14:53] PeterThoeny: ok, i have to leave soon [14:53] MichaelDaum: yes [14:53] PeterThoeny: can someone create the minutes of this meeting? [14:53] PeterThoeny: in codev [14:54] ArthurClemens: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/PatternSkinCssCookbookTopBarBackgroundImage [14:54] Lavr: I get an error when I view that page Arthur [14:55] ArthurClemens: an error.. [14:55] MichaelDaum: me not [14:55] Lavr: A Runtime Error has occured. Line 169. Error: "Insertion" is undefined. [14:55] MichaelDaum: only the logo looks bad [14:55] PeterThoeny: any other points to discuss? [14:55] Lavr: IE. [14:56] MichaelDaum: can we start the party now [14:56] MichaelDaum: ;) [14:56] Lavr: It was good to see you here "live" Peter. [14:56] ArthurClemens: Peter, please leave a comment on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ModernizePatternSkin [14:56] ArthurClemens: Lavr: prototype.js is not installed on develop [14:56] ArthurClemens: PatternSkin needs to be installed [14:56] PeterThoeny: Arthur: ok, i will [14:56] MichaelDaum: Peter, I hope to talk to you more often!!! [14:57] MichaelDaum: Thanks. [14:57] ArthurClemens: Thanks [14:57] terceiro: thank you all. Thank you Lynnwood for the initiative [14:57] PeterThoeny: it was a constructive discussion [14:57] PeterThoeny: i like it because it is effective [14:57] ArthurClemens: Please come by more often on IRC. It has changed _my_ way of working on twiki. [14:57] Lavr: Very. I enjoyed it. And good compromises. [14:58] PeterThoeny: thanks all for participating on a saturday, very early, very late, or away from kids [14:58] Lavr: Yeah the Freenode network is for geeks and nerds only :-) We never really see trolls here. [14:58] PeterThoeny: on #twiki, frankly, the few times i looked at the logs it was full of politics [14:59] PeterThoeny: it did not look inviting to me, not at all i am affraid [14:59] SvenDowideit: thats the reality of oss [14:59] MichaelDaum: I willk always recommend an irc channel for an oss [14:59] MichaelDaum: it is important for support also [15:00] ArthurClemens: Not to mention the small things, that is the oil that keeps the machine running [15:00] MichaelDaum: ... just to say hello [15:01] Lavr: I have by IRC open 24 hours on #motion and #twiki. We all come and go. It may take 20 hours before I answer. Everybody does that. I think there is a good mood in the #twiki channel. I would not be there otherwise. [15:01] PeterThoeny: ok, my son asks me to play with him for quite a while now [15:01] ArthurClemens: I am heading home. See you all here next days! [15:02] PeterThoeny: so, when is next meeting? [15:02] PeterThoeny: next sat is 12/24 [15:02] PeterThoeny: not good to meet [15:02] Lavr: Not really. [15:02] PeterThoeny: possibly fri 12/23? [15:02] *** ArthurClemens has left #twiki_dakar. [15:03] Lavr: I could on 23rd [15:03] MichaelDaum: I can only join mo+tue+wed next week [15:03] PeterThoeny: lets lynwood coordinate [15:03] MichaelDaum: then family rulez [15:03] Lavr: SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) [15:03] PeterThoeny: oh, i realize i am out 12/21 to 12/23 [15:04] PeterThoeny: ok, nice chat [15:04] PeterThoeny: thanks all! ttyl [15:04] Lavr: See you. Thanks again. [15:05] MichaelDaum: ok I will leave too but will be on #twiki still [15:05] *** MichaelDaum has left #twiki_dakar. [15:05] *** Lavr has left #twiki_dakar. [15:26] *** terceiro has signed off IRC ("Leaving"). [15:35] *** SvenDowideit has signed off IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).