**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 16 12:40:57 MST 2006 Jan 16 12:40:57 * Now talking on #twiki_dakar Jan 16 12:43:43 * PeterThoeny (n=PeterTho@71.141.155.229) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 12:45:58 I thought I'd go ahead and create the DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 topic and post the tentative agenda. Anyone see a problem with that? Jan 16 12:51:09 * wbniv (n=wbniv@red-corp-200.76.234.37.telnor.net) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 12:53:22 good idea Jan 16 12:53:45 hi sven, will & lynnwood! Jan 16 12:54:46 base the minutes on the last one, makes it easier Jan 16 12:57:24 Are you suggesting leavning the same talking points but erase the data? Jan 16 12:57:56 * SteffenPoulsen (n=step@cpe.atm2-0-1151196.0x503f90c2.arcnxx11.customer.tele.dk) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 12:58:39 PeterThoeny - you want to go ahead and create the topic based on your idea. I'm not completely sure I follow. Jan 16 12:59:48 just thought it is easier to delete stuff and keep the attendee list and action items for review Jan 16 13:00:03 OK - I'll proceed with that. Jan 16 13:00:49 hi steffen! Jan 16 13:00:59 hi guys Jan 16 13:01:04 * Lavr_ (i=Lavr@0x535b29eb.albnxx17.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:01:17 'hep all ;-) - been looking forward to tonight! Jan 16 13:01:22 Hello everyone Jan 16 13:01:32 * Lavr_ is now known as Lavr Jan 16 13:01:39 * Soronthar (n=Sorontha@200.109.162.192) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:01:54 hi all Jan 16 13:02:57 Hi, Soronthar - RafaelAlvarez? Jan 16 13:03:00 yep Jan 16 13:03:26 Greetings everyone. I just saved http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 Jan 16 13:03:37 It has the tentative agenda for today. Jan 16 13:03:51 It also has content from last meeting which I will be updating/replacing. Jan 16 13:04:00 thanks lynnwood Jan 16 13:04:00 Ignore for now the participant list and such. Jan 16 13:04:09 are you taking the minutes this time? Jan 16 13:04:24 Yes, I'll save the log. Jan 16 13:04:42 moin moin, is it time? Jan 16 13:04:43 thanks Jan 16 13:04:43 Lynnwood: great Jan 16 13:04:55 please checkpoint save them once in a while Jan 16 13:05:05 * Wohali (n=joant@hatest2.gol.ad.jp) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:05:30 hi rafael! Jan 16 13:05:36 Oh, I'm sorry - do you mean taking real-time notes on the topic? I might have trouble keeping up with that. Jan 16 13:06:02 I was thinking simply saving the irc log and then writing notes from that after the fact. Jan 16 13:06:21 Wohali: hi joan! Jan 16 13:06:22 * CDot (n=crawford@crawfordcurrie.plus.com) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:06:30 i added action items during the last meeting Jan 16 13:06:35 Lynnwood: I can try and update the topic underway, and you can review / correct after meeting Jan 16 13:06:35 hi crawford! Jan 16 13:06:40 If someone else is willing to try and keep real-time notes on the DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 Jan 16 13:06:48 Thanks SteffenPoulsen! Jan 16 13:06:53 hi will, thanks for inviting me Jan 16 13:07:02 sorry my ignorance, who is wohali? Jan 16 13:07:24 Hello Peter, I've been helping out with some plugin issues under dakar, and doing intensive commercial evaluation of the release for a company Jan 16 13:07:32 Heyho Joan! Nice to see you! Jan 16 13:07:40 I kinda got under the hood, and 3 or 4 folks here asked for my continuing support Jan 16 13:07:57 I've done what I can, and may have time for more in the future, depending on various external factors. Jan 16 13:08:08 Wohali: Great to hear :-) Jan 16 13:08:20 hi Peter, hi all (better late than never ;-) ) Jan 16 13:08:22 We haven't met before now, I've missed you online (though I am usually here.) Pleased to meet you. Jan 16 13:08:27 Before we get started, I like to check in about folk's time expectations/limitations. Jan 16 13:08:37 pleased to meet you joan Jan 16 13:08:40 Could we hear how long everyone has for this meeting? Jan 16 13:08:41 youre last name? Jan 16 13:08:52 i.e. Lynnwood doesn't want to be here all night Jan 16 13:08:53 I can be here for approx. 1.5 hours. Jan 16 13:08:59 its 4 hours earlier than i got up yesterday :) so i vote for a 4 hour ajurnment :) Jan 16 13:09:08 till I drop Jan 16 13:09:17 My last name is Touzet. My website is www.atypical.net. I've been an OSS developer for 14 years. Jan 16 13:09:24 email joant@ieee.org Jan 16 13:09:25 lets try to finish in 90 minutes Jan 16 13:09:29 last time was too long Jan 16 13:09:55 nice to have you on board joan! Jan 16 13:10:14 OK, I will do my best to keep us on track. It's a bit tricky in this medium but will do my best with all of your help. Jan 16 13:10:19 who else should be here? Jan 16 13:10:31 antonio said that he will join Jan 16 13:10:36 Arthur Jan 16 13:10:42 From last time we miss Arthur, Martin, Michael & Sam Jan 16 13:10:42 Anyone hear from Arthur? Jan 16 13:10:52 * qbfreak (n=qbfreak@cpe-069-132-236-161.carolina.res.rr.com) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:10:54 not for days Jan 16 13:11:12 * MartinCleaver (n=chatzill@emeeka2.plus.com) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:11:31 why is it everytime someone meantions martin's name, he appears Jan 16 13:11:33 Lynnwood: i've got up to 5 hours Jan 16 13:11:33 Hi Jason, hi Martin Jan 16 13:11:39 i recon he's a witch Jan 16 13:11:42 hi ya Jan 16 13:11:48 monrin :) Jan 16 13:11:53 hi martin, hi jason! Jan 16 13:11:54 Hello Margin. Jan 16 13:11:56 evenin' Jan 16 13:11:57 Martin, even. Jan 16 13:12:01 bit chilly. Jan 16 13:12:01 sending a "please join now"-message to twikidev might be an idea, perhaps? Jan 16 13:12:01 :) Jan 16 13:12:01 lol Jan 16 13:12:06 * qbfreak waves Jan 16 13:12:21 * MartinCleaver waves with his one good arm Jan 16 13:12:32 * terceiro (n=terceiro@200.213.40.71) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:12:33 you havn't been sky diving or something? Jan 16 13:12:33 Alright! Seems like we've attracted a crowd. Let get started. Jan 16 13:12:42 hi all Jan 16 13:12:47 hi antonio, glad you could join! Jan 16 13:12:48 Again, refer to the tentative agenda on DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 Jan 16 13:12:50 * SamHasler (n=SamHasle@twiki/developer/SamHasler) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:12:57 giggle Jan 16 13:13:01 just had an op to stop it dislocating Jan 16 13:13:02 Anyone have anything to add to agenda? Jan 16 13:13:05 hellooo Jan 16 13:13:13 Welcome Sam! Jan 16 13:13:18 hi sam Jan 16 13:13:21 just finished my dinner :) Jan 16 13:13:22 Delete Point 6: Warning for Deprecated API Calls from agenda. That was resolved Jan 16 13:13:23 MartinCleaver, neat - you can come climbing next time Jan 16 13:13:28 Lynnwood: where is the agenda (link please) Jan 16 13:13:38 http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 Jan 16 13:13:42 ta Jan 16 13:13:53 :) Jan 16 13:14:05 (Ignore carried over content from last meeting. We'll be replacing that as we go.) Jan 16 13:14:24 OK delete Point 6 - any problems with that? Jan 16 13:14:40 go ahead Jan 16 13:14:45 Peter suggested agenda. Point Quick review of bug items marked as urgent and required is important Jan 16 13:14:47 Point 6 gone Jan 16 13:14:51 Actually, to clarify: I just left those points from last meeting to check up on them. Jan 16 13:15:17 so lets start the meeting Jan 16 13:15:24 OK Jan 16 13:15:27 lynnwood is the facilitator this time Jan 16 13:15:44 oh yea, thanks peter Jan 16 13:15:54 the floor is all yours :-) Jan 16 13:16:02 so I'm going to try and stay out of content and focus on keeping us on track Jan 16 13:16:23 First item is to quickly go over points from last meeting and check status. Jan 16 13:16:41 Point 1: Dakar Doc update Jan 16 13:16:44 go for it Jan 16 13:16:56 ok, i am basically down to 8 docs Jan 16 13:17:01 Any updates or comments about that? Jan 16 13:17:22 most should be straight forward Jan 16 13:17:40 ok - point 2 looks pretty straight foward also. Jan 16 13:17:41 some take some extra thoughts Jan 16 13:18:07 crawford, could you give a quick update? Jan 16 13:18:07 any change in 2? Jan 16 13:18:20 How about 3? Any thing new on Login? Jan 16 13:18:43 currently, the only open release-blockers in the DB are docs. Jan 16 13:19:06 crawford: what is the eta on production release of wysiwygplugin Jan 16 13:19:12 well, i'm about to put 1393 back to a blocker... Jan 16 13:19:22 Item1393: twiki release naming breaks automation Jan 16 13:19:34 because the release *has* to be built from reproducible scripting Jan 16 13:19:35 not by hand Jan 16 13:19:43 agreed; and it *is* Jan 16 13:19:45 but it's not a big bug Jan 16 13:19:48 that's a point in the agenda Jan 16 13:20:00 CDot: cool, where's the script? what does it look like? Jan 16 13:20:21 the wysiwygplugin has no outstanding bugs Jan 16 13:20:32 * Lynnwood is trying to bring up the bug list Jan 16 13:20:39 so you could say it's in it's "cooling off" phase Jan 16 13:21:08 does that mean that we can advertise wysiwygplugin as a new feature? (not alpha / tech preview) Jan 16 13:21:29 no Jan 16 13:21:36 my position has not changed Jan 16 13:21:39 ok Jan 16 13:21:41 CDot: I agree, it feels more stable now, much better aura than last meeting Jan 16 13:21:58 so what is the eta? just asking to get a sense Jan 16 13:21:59 I think the defect arrival rate of WYSIWYG plugin is still so high that we should call it beta Jan 16 13:22:12 Lavr: that's my view as well. Jan 16 13:22:18 Like I said; cooling off Jan 16 13:22:23 But I agree it is much better now Jan 16 13:22:40 ok, no eta at this time, and we can label it as beta Jan 16 13:22:42 right? Jan 16 13:22:53 correct Jan 16 13:22:57 cool! Jan 16 13:23:37 so note on item 2 is only that we can call wysiwyg a "beta" now? Jan 16 13:23:54 talking about etas, Peter, did you have an eta on #1? Jan 16 13:24:05 otherwise status on that item is the same? Jan 16 13:24:29 Lynnwood: yes Jan 16 13:24:43 OK Jan 16 13:24:55 steffen: eta for pt 1 shifted due to bug hunting and fixing, about one week left Jan 16 13:25:10 great, noted Jan 16 13:25:16 Can anyone report on translations? Jan 16 13:25:28 Anything new or are we waiting for any particular one? Jan 16 13:25:38 ---++ translations Jan 16 13:26:04 translations: we broke the string freeze, and we'll wait until documentation work stops so you can freeze again Jan 16 13:26:23 translations got a little bit outdated Jan 16 13:26:32 but that's not big deal Jan 16 13:26:35 is there any doc work pending that is localization dependent? Jan 16 13:27:07 PeterThoeny: since the doc work is all your work, you are best placed to comment on that.... Jan 16 13:27:21 PeterThoeny: I don't know. Often messages in MAKETEXT's got changed during doc work Jan 16 13:27:29 i _think_ my pending doc work has no localization part to it Jan 16 13:27:40 but nothing stops translators to keep their translations up to date Jan 16 13:27:46 I reviewed all the messages in TestCaseOops* and they all look good to me Jan 16 13:28:08 maybe I could ping translators another time Jan 16 13:28:30 can we decide on a new string freeze date? Jan 16 13:28:31 terceiro: could you point them at the testcases Jan 16 13:28:47 Perhaps if there is some piece of documentation that we know affects localization, it could be pointed out. Jan 16 13:28:59 perhaps we could set an intentional date for going into string freeze again? Jan 16 13:29:27 templates should be the only things that affect localisation Jan 16 13:29:34 anyone have a suggested date? Jan 16 13:29:41 yes; today Jan 16 13:29:48 :) Jan 16 13:29:53 heh Jan 16 13:29:58 the only thing that would break that would be a bug Jan 16 13:30:08 it would be helpful to hear from Arthur. Jan 16 13:30:12 no, better to set announce a date to give everyone a few days time Jan 16 13:30:13 since there is not planned work that changes messages Jan 16 13:30:24 why? Jan 16 13:30:25 Does anyone know of further changes he has planned for templates? Jan 16 13:30:51 only relating to the language dropdown, afaik Jan 16 13:31:01 wbniv: explain? Jan 16 13:31:18 how about thsi friday for string freeze? Jan 16 13:31:38 or even earlier, this wed? Jan 16 13:31:42 there is no point in stringing it out (sorry) if there are no changes planned Jan 16 13:31:53 CDot: discussed at last meeting, arthur wants to present a list of languages to choose from instead of the change language oops page Jan 16 13:31:55 Sound OK - it would at least give arthur time to review Jan 16 13:32:07 but that shouldn't affect translations, i think Jan 16 13:32:17 friday sounds ok, making the weekend available for translators to work Jan 16 13:32:28 good Jan 16 13:32:30 friday? Jan 16 13:32:37 Why not just make it conditional on Arthir's review? Jan 16 13:32:44 agreed Jan 16 13:32:52 i.e. Arthur checks -> freeze Jan 16 13:32:58 friday sounds good to me Jan 16 13:33:19 How would we get out notice that Arthur has reviewed? Jan 16 13:33:19 i rather give everyone a chance to make some last changes Jan 16 13:33:35 Any pressing reason to have it before friday? Jan 16 13:33:44 Lynnwood: i don't think so Jan 16 13:33:50 That's fine, Peter, as long as those changes are tracked in the DB and prioritised "Urgent" or "Requirement" Jan 16 13:33:59 Any objections to Friday? Jan 16 13:34:01 we must *NOT* have any last-minute hcaking Jan 16 13:34:17 another reason to give time Jan 16 13:34:32 no, that's another reason to freeze now ;-) Jan 16 13:34:44 but i'm not going to argue about this one Jan 16 13:35:03 not hearing objections, let it be friday and let's move on. Jan 16 13:35:09 ok Jan 16 13:35:21 I agree, let's give time - we need wysiwygplugin to cool as well, next meeting we'll have a string freeze and most translations done Jan 16 13:35:23 antonio, please announce in codev and twiki-dev Jan 16 13:35:25 Point 4: Rest Jan 16 13:35:36 PeterThoeny: ok Jan 16 13:35:52 sorry point 5 I mean Jan 16 13:35:57 status on #3: Waiting for Arthur? Jan 16 13:36:10 nothing to report on 5 Jan 16 13:36:12 ah yes Jan 16 13:36:15 oki Jan 16 13:36:22 I ask before: no update on Login? Jan 16 13:36:26 sorry to rewind, but point 3 Jan 16 13:36:38 ah yes, you are thinking the same Jan 16 13:36:47 what is the problem with login in ClassicSkin? Jan 16 13:36:53 there is nothing in the DB Jan 16 13:37:28 i think it is http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item736 Jan 16 13:38:23 ok, so you want to un-defer it? Jan 16 13:38:44 i have not looked at this topic for a long time Jan 16 13:38:49 classic skin still works the same as it did with cairo, surely Jan 16 13:39:09 the only difference is no login/logout for use with TemplateLogin Jan 16 13:39:21 but an access control violation will still trigger a login Jan 16 13:39:36 sounds like a fairly trivial thing to add login... am I wrong? Jan 16 13:39:46 where would you add it? Jan 16 13:39:50 there is no left bar Jan 16 13:40:04 Lynwood: nope, we just need someone to do it - ready to note an action point :-) Jan 16 13:40:20 the design will take more work than the implementation Jan 16 13:40:24 I am not averse to adding it if (1) it is a show stopper and (2) there is an active item in the DB to cover it Jan 16 13:40:27 (as is often the case;) Jan 16 13:40:31 Peter - you know classic best. Suggested location for login? Jan 16 13:40:34 is it a show stopper? Jan 16 13:40:46 (has develop.twiki.org fallen over?) Jan 16 13:40:53 is it Urgent/Requirement? Jan 16 13:41:10 SamHasler: it's probably just updatig. Wait a mo and try again. Jan 16 13:41:21 Actually, lacking login link, it still works as Cairo did. Does it not? Jan 16 13:41:25 yes Jan 16 13:41:28 AFAIK Jan 16 13:41:41 So it's not actually "broken"? Jan 16 13:41:49 no, not AFAIK Jan 16 13:41:58 Lynnwood: nope, just not up to speed with pattern Jan 16 13:42:23 just looked at the classicskin, the easiest is to add a login link to the WEBTOPICLIST Jan 16 13:42:27 * AndreU (n=AndreU@dslb-082-083-219-078.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 13:42:36 Then, I would understand that as not Urgent? Jan 16 13:42:50 PeterThoeny: are you suggesting a code change? Jan 16 13:42:58 Why spend energy on the old ugly classic? Jan 16 13:43:11 Just maintain compatibility. Jan 16 13:43:30 i am not saying that this item is a showstopper Jan 16 13:43:50 as long as it is possible to use the classic skin Jan 16 13:43:55 OK so can it continue as "defered" unless someone picks it up. Jan 16 13:44:04 ? Jan 16 13:44:09 hopefully a classic skin user :) Jan 16 13:44:12 you might want to test ClassicSkin with template loginto make sure of that Jan 16 13:44:20 that will also help demonstrate a deman for it Jan 16 13:44:24 demand Jan 16 13:44:28 you can test it on ~develop Jan 16 13:44:31 crawford: how can u user login with classic skin? Jan 16 13:44:41 on access violatio Jan 16 13:44:48 they get redirected to login screen Jan 16 13:45:07 that's the theory, anyway Jan 16 13:45:08 and the login screen works in classic skin? tested? Jan 16 13:45:15 not by me Jan 16 13:45:15 develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/viewauth/Sandbox/WebHome?skin=classic / Peter: I'll give it a shot, see if I can place it near the webtopiclist, action item for me Jan 16 13:45:19 eg: attempting to edit a topic (as was old behavior). Jan 16 13:45:38 so let's proceed while that test is happening. Jan 16 13:45:56 SteffenPoulsen: are you testing? Jan 16 13:46:15 Back to #5 if no objections. Any new news on REST? Jan 16 13:46:29 i think rest is all done Jan 16 13:46:30 nope, it was just a viewauth link - login works ok with classic Jan 16 13:46:34 also docs, thanks to sven Jan 16 13:46:48 SteffenPoulsen: thanks. Lynnwood #3 is closed. Jan 16 13:46:51 Sven is still waking up ;-) Jan 16 13:47:08 nothing to report on 5 Jan 16 13:47:09 OK - on to point 7 Jan 16 13:47:09 :) Jan 16 13:47:18 no news is good news. Jan 16 13:47:29 CSS handling. Jan 16 13:47:31 deleting #5 Jan 16 13:47:31 closed, AFAIK Jan 16 13:47:41 * Lynnwood goes to read 959 Jan 16 13:47:47 closed? Jan 16 13:47:52 no, point 7, the header bg image is pending Jan 16 13:48:04 open action item for arthur Jan 16 13:48:06 it's in as enhancement, not show stopper Jan 16 13:48:26 i think is done or almost done Jan 16 13:48:49 actually, there might be some confusion no that one Jan 16 13:48:50 on that one Jan 16 13:48:53 is it *just* the image? Jan 16 13:48:57 CDot: yes Jan 16 13:49:06 the image that arthur created i now think is for twiki.org ? Jan 16 13:49:19 latest bg image: http://twiki.org/p/pub/Codev/ModernizePatternSkin/TWiki_header_white_and_web_.png Jan 16 13:49:20 whereas what i wanted was a header image for the *TWiki* web Jan 16 13:49:22 in the distro Jan 16 13:49:48 wbniv - just the TWiki web? Jan 16 13:49:52 no, the idea is to have one bg image for the whole site in the distro Jan 16 13:49:58 PeterThoeny: that's lovely. I vote we accept it. Jan 16 13:50:11 Especially if someone can confirm it is not a copyright image Jan 16 13:50:23 yes, just the TWiki web --- sandbox and main would use webbgcolor that arthur made possible Jan 16 13:50:25 good point Jan 16 13:50:41 finish up the bg image is action item for arthur Jan 16 13:51:00 I think the image is great (for the whole site too) - I set the copyright as an action item for Arthur Jan 16 13:51:01 and is it an "urgent" item? Jan 16 13:51:11 please regarde the issue in the bug DB. Action items in these minutes are *not* adequate for tracking. Jan 16 13:51:12 no, web bgcolor is no in the title bar of the web left bar Jan 16 13:51:27 Do we want a quick poll/vote on that image as CDot suggest? Jan 16 13:51:40 I'd like to propose using a quick polling convention here. On the proposal presented, enter a 1 for don't support and 5 for completely support. Jan 16 13:51:47 * CDot has already voted yes, subject to © Jan 16 13:51:51 darn Jan 16 13:52:00 I vote yes, subject to (C) Jan 16 13:52:02 so, my idea was that the twiki web could have an image (say, heavily processed) that is something from Dakar Jan 16 13:52:12 Dakar, the code-name city, that is Jan 16 13:52:24 OK, quick poll on the image in like provided above, subject to Copywrite check. Jan 16 13:52:25 while we are on images: has the robot been fully removed? The last version I tried still had the 'bot in it, though it may easily have been from NatSkin. Jan 16 13:52:34 1 Jan 16 13:52:43 4 Jan 16 13:52:46 5 Jan 16 13:52:47 5 Jan 16 13:52:48 1 Jan 16 13:52:57 Hold that one for just a sec Wohali. Jan 16 13:53:00 5 Jan 16 13:53:05 (i actually don't like the image :() Jan 16 13:53:07 sure. I only see one image. can you replate the link?> Jan 16 13:53:35 all iterations are at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ModernizePatternSkin Jan 16 13:53:42 ty Jan 16 13:54:02 Sounds like there are some not-so-positive views of image. My question is this: Jan 16 13:54:22 Only for twiki.org. Possible to install for people is nice feature but not there by default. Jan 16 13:54:35 then we should drop it and move on Jan 16 13:54:36 Lavr: right, i thought that image was for twiki.org Jan 16 13:54:44 Does anyone want to raise an objection to it or are you OK to go with what the folks who have worked on this have come up with. Jan 16 13:54:47 1. Jan 16 13:54:48 i like the second last one on twiki.org more Jan 16 13:54:57 well, the ModernizePatternSkin has been up for quite a while and went through many iterations Jan 16 13:55:01 with the webcolor too Jan 16 13:55:11 are you suggesting to start over again? Jan 16 13:55:28 no, i'm suggesting it's for twiki.org, and don't pollute my webs by default with that image Jan 16 13:55:30 i'm telling you what i think Jan 16 13:55:38 PeterThoeny - who is question directed towards? Jan 16 13:55:51 we can't park this here - let's move on, and return to it later Jan 16 13:55:59 we need arthur to sorten things out, really Jan 16 13:56:03 to will (sorry for not being specific) Jan 16 13:56:07 SteffenPoulsen: seconded Jan 16 13:56:20 ok, lets move on Jan 16 13:56:23 agreed Jan 16 13:56:27 OK, moving on. Jan 16 13:56:33 thanks Steffen Jan 16 13:56:36 hang on; just to make the position clear, without an Urgent or Requirement status, this *will not hold up the release*. OK? Jan 16 13:56:52 agreed. Jan 16 13:56:55 CDot: agreed. Jan 16 13:57:02 so we should set it to urgent then Jan 16 13:57:10 no, we shouldn't Jan 16 13:57:15 If we agree that the distribution should not have an image - the twiki.org look should not influence the release. Jan 16 13:57:17 small change that has been prepared for a long time Jan 16 13:57:25 let arthur decide, it's his call Jan 16 13:57:27 ok, you can set to urgent for me to pull the placeholder artwork (and an action item for me) Jan 16 13:57:31 however, the new image isn't urgent Jan 16 13:57:33 right? Jan 16 13:57:48 the new image isn't a blocker, that is, right? Jan 16 13:58:01 Peter, if you consider this important enough to delay the release, then you must regrade the item to "Urgent", yes. Jan 16 13:58:07 no, a modern look that attracts people is important, hence urgent to get into dakar Jan 16 13:58:25 Please add all relevant status data in the repport, so it can be aggressively tracked. Jan 16 13:58:26 heh, a bunch of paper is hardly a modern look Jan 16 13:58:44 wbniv: would papyrus be better? stone tablets? Jan 16 13:58:48 i find the ability for people to use/create their own header artwork *much more important* Jan 16 13:59:01 Given that we don't have full info on this, shall we defer further discussion for now. Jan 16 13:59:16 It doesn't seem that this discussion is heading in useful direction. Jan 16 13:59:19 actio: Peter regrade issue 739 Jan 16 13:59:27 or whateer the number was Jan 16 13:59:33 *please* can we park this, and return to it later - there's been a lot of time already to comment on the proposals Jan 16 13:59:46 CDot: noted Jan 16 13:59:51 thanks again Steffen Jan 16 13:59:53 736 Jan 16 14:00:02 * MartinCleaver has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jan 16 14:00:05 without objections, I'm proceeding. Jan 16 14:00:34 I propose that we defer discussion of Release Schedule until after going through urgent bug list. Jan 16 14:00:39 ok marked http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item748 as urgent Jan 16 14:01:36 cool. WHat's next, Lynnwood? Jan 16 14:01:39 Looking at the Urgent bugs Jan 16 14:01:51 Item1336 - urgent? Jan 16 14:01:58 what is it? Jan 16 14:02:07 here is the link for all: http://develop.twiki.org/users/develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/AllOutStandingItems?class=Engine%7CDocumentation&=&sortcol=3;table=1;up=1#sorted_table Jan 16 14:02:10 Create new DefaultSkin Jan 16 14:02:18 seems like a pretty big project at this late time... Jan 16 14:02:35 no, it just means the topic Jan 16 14:02:41 I think Jan 16 14:02:50 * Wohali waits for develop Jan 16 14:02:53 ah, thanks Jan 16 14:03:26 Item1336 just takes 15 minutes to create the skin topic for the default template Jan 16 14:03:46 the disagreement is if we should or should not create the topic Jan 16 14:04:18 any progress in reaching compromise? Jan 16 14:04:23 -) Jan 16 14:04:57 * Lynnwood is trying to avoid reading complete bug topics to get up to speed Jan 16 14:05:31 we discussed this at length the last time Jan 16 14:05:43 i suggest to treat this as a parked item and move on Jan 16 14:06:01 OK - but it's still an urgent item. Jan 16 14:06:02 hold on; if it isn;'t resolved, we are left with an Urgent item that we can;t close Jan 16 14:06:30 it's between you and CC, I'm afraid - we can look the other way for two minutes and see if there's a surviver? Jan 16 14:06:34 maybe we should add a new rule - if its unresolved after x meetings, it gets deffered Jan 16 14:07:02 where x == 2? :) Jan 16 14:07:08 well, there *is* a compromise available, that I have already gone some way towards. Jan 16 14:07:15 or better: it gets reverted to the original spec Jan 16 14:07:16 OK, for now, I'd like to propose we simply review the urgent bugs to get a status report and not try in first round to resolve disputed items. Jan 16 14:07:17 :-) Jan 16 14:07:31 well, i'm happy the way it is :p Jan 16 14:07:34 We can return to them if we have time. Jan 16 14:07:57 PeterThoeny: that is not an option Jan 16 14:08:18 it is, revert to cairo? Jan 16 14:08:22 the reasons I changed the spec still stand. Calling the default templates a skin is confusing. Jan 16 14:08:28 its fully cairo compatible Jan 16 14:08:45 ok, i really want to move on, i already spend many hours a day, 7 days a week on dakar Jan 16 14:08:54 lets have it crawford way and move on :-) Jan 16 14:09:01 * MartinCleaver (n=chatzill@emeeka2.plus.com) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 14:09:09 whee! Jan 16 14:09:12 thanks Peter. Jan 16 14:09:14 I'd like to request the interested parties to continue discussion off-line and try to come up with resolution/compromise and let's move up with status update on each bug Jan 16 14:09:30 wow, good show Peter! Jan 16 14:09:59 Item1395 Remove MAKETEXT from NewUserTemplate Jan 16 14:10:07 update on this one? Jan 16 14:10:13 action item for crawford: finish up bug and close it. Jan 16 14:10:17 disputes? how much time needed. Jan 16 14:10:18 that appears to have been done, but SteffenPoulsen left it open Jan 16 14:10:30 where the heck did I get involved in it? Jan 16 14:10:53 the "let's have it crawford way" sentence Jan 16 14:10:59 not sure i uderstand the issue on Item1395 Jan 16 14:11:00 ok Jan 16 14:11:04 SteffenPoulsen: that was for the previous one Jan 16 14:11:11 I don;t think there *is* an issue any more Jan 16 14:11:33 someone changes NewUserTemplate, but didn;t update the bug, or it was updated and re-opened Jan 16 14:11:36 all text between %NOP{ ... }% gets removed on topic instantiation Jan 16 14:11:41 I don;t know which Jan 16 14:11:49 Lynwood: give a minute to round up for consensus before proceeding Jan 16 14:12:04 no problem, I'm waiting. Jan 16 14:12:18 assuming we're talking about item1395 Jan 16 14:12:19 PeterThoeny: I created a new user for fun, if you look at his topic, that's not how it works at the moment Jan 16 14:12:43 hmm, possibly a bug then? Jan 16 14:12:53 yep, I guess we need to open another bug to get that fixed, then Jan 16 14:13:15 please, don;t leave it hanging! Jan 16 14:13:20 SteffenPoulsen - link to test topic? Jan 16 14:13:44 I'll do that - a "%NOP is not working" / urgent bug - demo at: http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Main/NewUserTemplateTest Jan 16 14:14:08 what i did is add a %NOP{ ... }% with help text for administrator Jan 16 14:14:48 oh, i understand the bug Jan 16 14:14:59 from docs it seems that %NOP% is not multi-line, but if it _should_ be, then it's a bug Jan 16 14:15:16 NOP was always multline Jan 16 14:15:23 can I ask you to open an appropriate bug and move on, please? Jan 16 14:15:35 * CDot badly needs a beer Jan 16 14:15:37 okay, action item for me, file bug on %NOP% Jan 16 14:15:39 introduced to add access control to template topic only (not instantiated) Jan 16 14:15:53 OK. bug reported. moving on. Jan 16 14:15:58 any objections? Jan 16 14:15:59 the bug is that any }% closes the %NOP{ Jan 16 14:16:09 also if not in correct testing order Jan 16 14:16:22 is now bug Jan 16 14:16:32 has nothing to do with template topic question Jan 16 14:16:46 great, that can be closed, then Jan 16 14:16:55 yes Jan 16 14:17:03 OK. Item1322 TWiki.org doc merge: TWikiHistory needs Dakar history Jan 16 14:17:18 i had to reopen it Jan 16 14:17:25 I know that's something I was assigned to work on and haven't. Jan 16 14:17:32 we agreed on last meeting to update twikihistory Jan 16 14:18:23 it is just a to to item Jan 16 14:18:29 I haven't reviewed how much work is involved in creating twikihistory in similar format as before. Jan 16 14:18:44 any comment on that? Or else we can just move on. Jan 16 14:18:45 nothing to discuss unless we want to revisit it Jan 16 14:19:07 OK. let's proceed. not much time left. Jan 16 14:19:08 action item for peter? Jan 16 14:19:12 s/to to/to do/ Jan 16 14:19:19 no, already AI for Lynnwood Jan 16 14:19:23 great Jan 16 14:19:24 for me or lynnwood Jan 16 14:19:27 me is ok Jan 16 14:19:43 noted Jan 16 14:19:48 ok then, lynnwood Jan 16 14:20:23 OK, next: Jan 16 14:20:24 Item1368 Rename HEADERART to WEBHEADERIMAGE Jan 16 14:21:00 any comments? Jan 16 14:21:29 nothing more than what i wrote on the topic Jan 16 14:21:39 i'd rather not call if WEBHEADERIMAGE Jan 16 14:21:44 HEADERART is more descriptive Jan 16 14:21:51 if no-one is going to make a change, can we feeze and close it please? Jan 16 14:21:57 more in line with what "the kids these days" call it Jan 16 14:22:06 *but* Jan 16 14:22:15 i'm willing to live with a name change if that's what arthur does :) Jan 16 14:22:16 wbniv - difficult change? Jan 16 14:22:43 pretty easy--- the usual, change all the names everywhere *and* update the docs, too Jan 16 14:22:54 i have no input on this one, this is something that a typical behind firewall installation probably soes not use Jan 16 14:23:12 It has to signal that the value is the path to an image file and I think WEBHEADERIMAGE signals that better than HEADERART. But HEADERART is not THAT bad either Jan 16 14:23:28 WEBHEADERART ? Jan 16 14:23:43 so wbniv - can we leave that item to you and Arthur to either implement or close? Jan 16 14:23:51 but the bug topic is very confusing, and actually has 3 different threads of discussion Jan 16 14:24:03 AI: wbniv to sort it out - pronto? Jan 16 14:24:17 or to kill it by friday? Jan 16 14:24:26 action item noted for wbniv: seperate 3 threads in 1368, try to close them Jan 16 14:24:28 *i* think it's sorted out ;-) it's someone else that wants to change it Jan 16 14:24:37 SteffenPoulsen: that's a fine action item Jan 16 14:24:41 wbniv: then you have an easy job Jan 16 14:24:44 kill it then Jan 16 14:24:49 move on Jan 16 14:24:51 ok, i'll deal with it Jan 16 14:24:56 assign it to me for by friday Jan 16 14:24:57 OK. thanks wbniv! Jan 16 14:25:00 Item1420 last translations update after string freeze for Dakar Jan 16 14:25:07 I think we've addressed this Jan 16 14:25:08 Lynnwood: I've just added this one Jan 16 14:25:09 (i have a busy week ahead in my personal life) Jan 16 14:25:10 already discussed Jan 16 14:25:11 no need do discus Jan 16 14:25:29 OK. Jan 16 14:25:44 that leaves Item 663 - which we've also discussed. Jan 16 14:25:50 wbniv: 1st priorities first Jan 16 14:25:52 yep Jan 16 14:26:10 I think we've review open urgent bugs. Jan 16 14:26:20 4 minutes left.... Jan 16 14:26:23 Shall we revisit possible target release date. Jan 16 14:26:24 ? Jan 16 14:26:39 y, how about next meeting time Jan 16 14:26:55 next meeting: same time in a week Jan 16 14:27:01 perhaps do that first for folks needing to leave. Jan 16 14:27:12 no, i mean release at the time of next meeting Jan 16 14:27:13 this is probably best time for me. Jan 16 14:27:14 Next Monday OK with me Jan 16 14:27:20 and me Jan 16 14:27:26 me2 Jan 16 14:27:29 (for the meeting *or* the release) Jan 16 14:27:33 me too on what? Jan 16 14:27:35 meeting for now. Jan 16 14:27:38 excelent, we release in 1 week :) Jan 16 14:27:39 either Jan 16 14:27:41 next release meeting or release date? Jan 16 14:27:47 meeting time. Jan 16 14:27:48 first. Jan 16 14:28:09 then we'll address release. I don't want to mix discussions. Jan 16 14:28:09 hey, the weekend can be not enough for translators. Not every one uses computers on weekends Jan 16 14:28:24 oh terceiro, use your whip :) Jan 16 14:28:26 we're talking meeting now. not release. Jan 16 14:28:33 terceiro: then string-freeze *today* Jan 16 14:28:36 Lynnwood: ok Jan 16 14:28:47 Meeting: same time next week. Jan 16 14:28:51 hearing no objectives for meeting - same time, next week. Jan 16 14:28:56 moving on. Jan 16 14:28:56 ok Jan 16 14:29:01 great Jan 16 14:29:02 OK release date. Jan 16 14:29:06 :) Jan 16 14:29:08 Proposals? Jan 16 14:29:14 monday Jan 16 14:29:17 before we decide, let me share some statistics Jan 16 14:29:52 here are the items created and marked as urgent or required, by month: Jan 16 14:29:52 2005/05: 25 Jan 16 14:29:52 2005/06: 18 Jan 16 14:29:52 2005/07: 44 Jan 16 14:29:52 2005/08: 39 Jan 16 14:29:53 2005/09: 82 Jan 16 14:29:55 2005/10: 85 Jan 16 14:29:57 2005/11: 65 Jan 16 14:29:59 2005/12: 68 Jan 16 14:30:01 2006/01: 43 (27 since last release meeting) Jan 16 14:30:06 Lavr, what do you think? Jan 16 14:30:21 If you look at the actual bugs they tend to be many WYSIWYG. Many doc bugs. Many bugs that are made in code changes just made. Jan 16 14:30:26 so 27 in the last week + 2 days Jan 16 14:30:31 But not that many real code bugs anymore Jan 16 14:30:47 PeterThoeny, you need to work on making the stats relevant more Jan 16 14:30:49 actually, i filed quite a few code bugs Jan 16 14:30:58 and thay have been resolved quickly :-) Jan 16 14:31:20 * SteffenPoulsen notes that we're re-arranging the agenda again - will have to get back to release naming convention Jan 16 14:31:20 There is probably not an objective basis for setting the release date. I'm just checking if we can get some date that will excite folks as a goal that we can all get behind. Jan 16 14:31:24 i think the code is ready now Jan 16 14:31:42 but i have an uneasy feeling simply because of the bug rate Jan 16 14:32:06 i would prefer to let it sit for a few days without new bugs, then release Jan 16 14:32:36 might we put out tentative target date, pending new flush of bugs? Jan 16 14:32:38 i would prefer we released 6 months ago Jan 16 14:32:42 i think it would damage the reputation of twiki if we release and get 20 major issues within a month Jan 16 14:32:46 and then have had fixes Jan 16 14:32:47 note: new *Urgent* or *Requirement* bugs Jan 16 14:33:02 some people think twiki's reputation atm is *dead* Jan 16 14:33:08 PeterThoeny: agreed, let's ship a beta6 now, and a date for a RC1 (next meeting) - and THEN decide release date Jan 16 14:33:09 let's not go there Jan 16 14:33:19 PeterThoeny: i'm not arguing against what you're saying; however, please remember that part of the reason for making a release is to get more widespread testing, to have fast turn around times on bug fixes, and release a refresher pack in a month Jan 16 14:33:20 I'm not interested in rehashing old dis-satisfactions. I'm interested in a proposed date. Jan 16 14:33:22 I like SteffenPoulsen's suggestion Jan 16 14:33:34 its decisive Jan 16 14:33:40 SteffenPoulsen: I like that Jan 16 14:33:44 Yes. Jan 16 14:34:01 Does anyone have objections to SteffenPoulsen's proposal? Jan 16 14:34:03 done :) Jan 16 14:34:12 "let's ship a beta6 now, and a date for a RC1 (next meeting) - and THEN decide release date" Jan 16 14:34:13 rcs are good. Jan 16 14:34:14 Steffens proposal is a good one Jan 16 14:34:22 before building beta 6, i would like to get release naming sorted out Jan 16 14:34:22 release naming: Jan 16 14:34:27 i'm ok with SteffenPoulsen's proposal Jan 16 14:34:37 TWiki-4.0.0-beta6 Jan 16 14:34:45 i noted that the 'other' naming proposals mark a few 'minor' cons Jan 16 14:34:53 question: what do you undertsand with "lets ship beta6" Jan 16 14:34:59 same as beta5 or? Jan 16 14:35:01 that i think are actually major things Jan 16 14:35:10 beta6 == whats in svn now Jan 16 14:35:12 ish Jan 16 14:35:17 PeterThoeny: beta 6 is just a snapshot of development Jan 16 14:35:32 I know of some valuable bugs fixed since 5. Jan 16 14:35:36 yep, beta6 as is .. and btw, I was thinking of actually releasing the RC1 at the end of next meeting, if no showstoppers at that time - my sentence was not clear Jan 16 14:35:44 i.e. we just build from the repository right now, and call it beta 6 Jan 16 14:35:55 y, and then the same in a week as rc1 Jan 16 14:35:56 SteffenPoulsen: that's what I understood Jan 16 14:35:59 are you saying "lets ship beta 6 as the dakar release" or "lets ship beta6 as another beta"? Jan 16 14:36:00 me too Jan 16 14:36:08 lets ship a beta Jan 16 14:36:11 just a beta Jan 16 14:36:21 nothing "golden" :-) Jan 16 14:36:21 no, he is saying "lets build a betsa" and then "build RC1 at the next meeting" Jan 16 14:36:40 the repository is golden Jan 16 14:36:41 y, and if all is well rc1 will be very similar to beta6 Jan 16 14:36:41 ok, i am fine with that Jan 16 14:36:43 etc Jan 16 14:36:49 ok, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiReleaseNamingConvention Jan 16 14:36:55 i noted that the 'other' naming proposals mark a few 'minor' cons Jan 16 14:37:00 that i think are actually major things Jan 16 14:37:13 ie, the reason that the conventional system is used Jan 16 14:37:17 let go to naming convention after concluding this item. Jan 16 14:37:27 we're concluded Jan 16 14:37:34 Lynnwood: I thought I *was* concluded Jan 16 14:37:35 Any further objections? Jan 16 14:37:49 I think peter was asking for clarification. Jan 16 14:37:57 I _think_ we're concluded on that. Jan 16 14:37:58 it is clear i think Jan 16 14:38:03 OK. Jan 16 14:38:11 Naming convention. Jan 16 14:38:31 tricky. Jan 16 14:38:38 simple Jan 16 14:38:43 thats what standards are for Jan 16 14:38:56 The topic shows a pretty strong leaning. Jan 16 14:38:58 simple - twiki is a wiki Jan 16 14:39:13 the votes there mostly support Sven's proposal. Jan 16 14:39:22 hasn't anyone realised that if we call it TWiki4, there aren't those date comparison that people were worried about (and thus leading to the discussion about release in dec 2005 or jan 2006) ??? Jan 16 14:39:38 Peter did post a revised proposal just today I think. Jan 16 14:39:45 Have folks reviewed that? Jan 16 14:39:46 no, yesterday Jan 16 14:39:54 yes, I reviewed it Jan 16 14:40:12 the new proposal addresses some of the shortfalls of the 4.0.0 proposal Jan 16 14:40:27 i dissagree - it just calls them minor Jan 16 14:40:45 I also added my oppinion to the topic. I support Sven's proposal also. Jan 16 14:40:53 ok, i have one one thing to add Jan 16 14:40:54 AFAICT the only valid objection to the numerical scheme is sorting order Jan 16 14:40:56 ok, lets spend some dime looking at the 4.0.0 proposal Jan 16 14:41:12 objection 3. Rock-solid link to the repository, without having to muck about with labelling is irrelevant Jan 16 14:41:15 people much cleverer than any of us spent ages thinking it up Jan 16 14:41:19 we *have to have* labels/branches in svn Jan 16 14:41:25 to know what was shipped Jan 16 14:41:32 and for what to base patches, security fixes, etc. from ! Jan 16 14:41:42 Peter has raised question of how to refer to 4.0.0 as wiki word. Jan 16 14:41:53 why do we need to? Jan 16 14:42:07 TWiki has wonderful [[TWiki_4_0_0]] syntax Jan 16 14:42:08 so, how to you call the release topic for 4.1.12? Jan 16 14:42:08 TWikiRelease4x0x0 Jan 16 14:42:12 wikiword not needed Jan 16 14:42:16 or, why not make twiki work so that TWiki4.1.12 is a wiki word? Jan 16 14:42:30 SvenDowideit: bingo! Jan 16 14:42:31 mind you i agree with CDot Jan 16 14:42:40 TWiki_4_1_12 Jan 16 14:42:51 it seems the twiki way, to add syntax for small not really needed things Jan 16 14:42:56 [sidebar] I agree with wbniv. After working in commercial CMS deployment for many years, if you're going to support patches to previous versions as well as current, branches and labels is basically your only option that is long-term workable. Jan 16 14:42:56 i'd like look at these roadblocks as opportunities to enhance, rather than trying to distort reality to the wiki Jan 16 14:43:29 again, I agree with wbniv; is there a solid argument against adding wikiword support for dotted version numbers other than "it's different than the current behaviour?" Jan 16 14:43:42 Wohali: yes. But SVN is nice, because it identifies each repository revision with a UID, unique across branches Jan 16 14:43:48 dots are currently used as web separator Jan 16 14:43:50 so a label isn't actually needed Jan 16 14:44:03 cdot: OK, but branches are. Jan 16 14:44:04 no, but a branch is Jan 16 14:44:08 which is what labels are in svn Jan 16 14:44:11 right :) Jan 16 14:44:16 The SVN number does not tell if it is a major, minor or bugfix release. Jan 16 14:44:25 terceiro: As are /, correct? subwebs aren't really a released feature in Dakar either. Jan 16 14:44:33 Lavr: no, that's what the 4_0_0 does Jan 16 14:44:38 * Lynnwood is trying to follow threads of discussion. Jan 16 14:44:43 Yes CDot Jan 16 14:44:51 One question is how to review to 4.0.0 Jan 16 14:45:05 the other is how to deal with branches. Jan 16 14:45:16 am I write (or correct me) Jan 16 14:45:18 hold on; these are not questions at issue Jan 16 14:45:24 right Jan 16 14:45:29 the question at issue is the release naming convention Jan 16 14:45:34 yes Jan 16 14:45:36 looks like we have nothing more to discuss :) Jan 16 14:45:42 4.0.0 or something else Jan 16 14:45:48 y, there is strong consensus Jan 16 14:45:48 * PeterThoeny thinks what a good topic naming could be for 4.1.12 that sorts easily, is short and can be used to constructs automated selectors in support web and plugins web Jan 16 14:46:13 ok, in a spirit of compromise; Peter, would you be happy with this: Jan 16 14:46:23 TWiki-4.0.0.zip Jan 16 14:46:33 TWiki_04_00_00 Jan 16 14:46:40 ? Jan 16 14:46:48 and topic name? Jan 16 14:46:56 TWiki_04_00_00 Jan 16 14:47:10 ouch, not linking Jan 16 14:47:14 so? Jan 16 14:47:18 [[TWiki-4.0.0]] Jan 16 14:47:21 done Jan 16 14:47:31 i like [[TWiki-4.0.0]] Jan 16 14:47:53 yes, that'd be in keeping with many other OSS projects Jan 16 14:47:58 chances of you hitting a wikiword with TWikiReleaseDakarSausageBeta900067 are fairly slim...... Jan 16 14:48:03 are you suggesting to use a sub-web per maintenance release and per patch? Jan 16 14:48:03 and if twiki has a problem sorting it, i call that a bug Jan 16 14:48:11 PeterThoeny: no Jan 16 14:48:20 PeterThoeny: no Jan 16 14:48:22 I was just giving a naming convenbtion Jan 16 14:48:42 so you can type [[TWiki_04_00_00]] Jan 16 14:48:53 and the release zip is called TWiki-4.0.0 Jan 16 14:48:54 please understand, i am not hung up on the date based names and on the code name based names Jan 16 14:49:08 just trying to find something that works for all cases Jan 16 14:49:10 Yes, I hear that peter. Jan 16 14:49:28 Just thought I'd give a few to see if we could addres your remaining reservation. Jan 16 14:49:47 TWikiReleaseMajor04Minor00Bugfix00 will link but not look good Jan 16 14:49:57 yuck Jan 16 14:49:58 But, strictly speaking, the topic name question is separate from the release naming convention. Jan 16 14:49:59 What about TWikiRelease04x00x00 ? Jan 16 14:50:11 terceiro: not bad Jan 16 14:50:12 difference between _ and x? Jan 16 14:50:19 i think the "agreed on requirements" are good Jan 16 14:50:25 CDot: x will link without [[]] Jan 16 14:50:29 CDot: _ doesn't form WikiWords Jan 16 14:50:50 i do not see that the 4.1.12 addresses the last two bullets Jan 16 14:51:02 OK, I think we're ready to test for consensus on the RELEASE naming convention. Yes? Jan 16 14:51:08 namely, Jan 16 14:51:08 # The release topic should be named (almost) the same as the release name (production and beta) Jan 16 14:51:08 # The package name should be named (almost) the same as the release name (production and beta) Jan 16 14:51:10 I don't really like padding the # out to 2 digits, but I understand for sorting it may be required Jan 16 14:51:29 * SteffenPoulsen likes TWikiRelease04x00x00 .. a lot Jan 16 14:51:29 PeterThoeny: which last two bullets? Jan 16 14:51:41 # Easy to integrate with queries on TWiki.org (such as release selectors in Support web and Plugins web) Jan 16 14:51:42 # Sortable - also correct sorting order with existing production release names, such as TWikiRelease04Sep2004 Jan 16 14:51:42 the padding is a crutch due to twiki's lack of types :( Jan 16 14:51:44 those two? Jan 16 14:52:39 so basic proposal is to present each number with 2 digits? Jan 16 14:52:40 ok, TWikiRelease04x01x12 looks workable Jan 16 14:52:57 which last two bullets ? Jan 16 14:53:01 which last two bullets ? Jan 16 14:53:01 which last two bullets ? Jan 16 14:53:03 name the package TWikiRelease04x01x12.zip then? Jan 16 14:53:10 wbniv: in the requirements Jan 16 14:53:18 PeterThoeny: NO! Jan 16 14:53:20 OK. could anyone quickly reiterate current proposal? Jan 16 14:53:22 CDot: ok, thanks Jan 16 14:53:24 will: the ones i labelled "namely" above Jan 16 14:53:28 the whole point is to be compatible with OSS standards Jan 16 14:53:38 TWiki-4.0.0.zip Jan 16 14:53:41 well, the "Sortable" one isn't correct --- yeah, they're sortable if there's only 1 release per year, but eg, 01Jan06 and 01Apr06 wouldn't sort correctly (as april would be sorted before january) Jan 16 14:53:55 TWiki-4.0.0-1.fc4.rpm Jan 16 14:54:08 wbniv: but 2006x04x01 is sortable. Jan 16 14:54:20 TWiki-4.1.12-5.deb Jan 16 14:54:28 CDot: right, but that's not what's on TWikiReleaseNamingConvention Jan 16 14:54:34 TWikiKernel-4.1.12-5.deb Jan 16 14:54:40 TWikiPlugins-4.1.12-5.deb Jan 16 14:54:50 it is *far* more important to name the package consistently with OSS standards than it is to have it named the same as the release topic Jan 16 14:54:59 i agree Jan 16 14:55:08 even perl switched :) Jan 16 14:55:15 to the commonly-accepted practice Jan 16 14:55:22 how would you label beta topics? Jan 16 14:55:24 I see no reason why we cannot use x on topic names and . in filenames. Jan 16 14:55:42 PeterThoeny: see TWikiReleaseNamingCOnventions Jan 16 14:55:46 Lavr: i see no reason why twiki shouldn't handle "." in topic names Jan 16 14:56:03 Cons: Jan 16 14:56:03 1. No obvious way to mark alphas/nightly releases/betas (TWiki-4.0.0.beta6 makes some sense....) Jan 16 14:56:03 * the standard way to deal with this is TWiki-4.0.0-beta6 Jan 16 14:56:04 The . seperates webs and subwebs Jan 16 14:56:16 Lavr, / does too Jan 16 14:56:36 could we please do not discuss this now? Jan 16 14:56:39 THERE WILL BE NO CHANGES TO THE CORE CODE TO SUPPORT THIS NAMING SCHEME. Ok? Jan 16 14:56:47 y, plugins are great :) Jan 16 14:56:57 we have to do it within current constraints Jan 16 14:57:02 Agree with Cdot. No code change is you want to release this month Jan 16 14:57:19 [[are you friend, no?]] Jan 16 14:57:25 Shall we test for consensus on release naming separate from release TOPIC naming? Jan 16 14:57:32 i read the topic Jan 16 14:57:33 sure Jan 16 14:57:41 guys...you're having a 30 minute argument about the RELEASE NAMING CONVENTION. That's like designing the space shuttle, and having a 30 day argument about what COLOR it should be. Jan 16 14:57:50 >_< Jan 16 14:57:50 yep :) Jan 16 14:57:52 recognizing that it has to be resolved but we've explored some options. Jan 16 14:57:54 innit fun Jan 16 14:58:09 Wohali: but if we only have to paint it _once_ that's at least something ;-) Jan 16 14:58:10 yeah, I go through similar nonsense wiht other projects. Doesn't mean it doesn't really irritate me. Jan 16 14:58:12 thanks Wohali. Jan 16 14:58:14 so, beta1 for edinburgh is called TWikiRelease05x00x00beta Jan 16 14:58:18 you wait til we get to what colour we should put on the box Jan 16 14:58:24 beta2 for edinburgh is called TWikiRelease05x00x00beta2 Jan 16 14:58:26 etc? Jan 16 14:58:36 sven: If y'all start having arguments about logos, or LED colors and behaviour, I'm outta here. Jan 16 14:58:39 i'm missing something PeterThoeny Jan 16 14:58:42 e.g. all betas with 05x00x00? Jan 16 14:58:47 PeterThoeny: where did that come from? We are talking about Sven's proposal Jan 16 14:58:48 is called TWikiRelease05x00x00 Jan 16 14:59:14 OK Jan 16 14:59:16 I'm sorry, unless there is clear consensus emerging about topic naming, I'd like to table and just address release naming. Jan 16 14:59:21 we are now talking about filename ONLY Jan 16 14:59:32 OK Jan 16 14:59:35 Lynnwood: *topic* naming or *release* naming? Jan 16 14:59:41 and we consider the standard to be TWiki-4.1.12.tgz Jan 16 14:59:43 release naming. Jan 16 14:59:44 Lynnwood: good idea. I will execute on a mapoping to a topic name, ensuring it is sortable. Jan 16 15:00:04 IF we agree to filename Jan 16 15:00:08 -30 mins left! Jan 16 15:00:09 the proposal on the table is what Sven posted above. Jan 16 15:00:09 * Wohali votes for sven's release naming structure. Jan 16 15:00:16 then we can figure out a mapping to topic name Jan 16 15:00:19 y Jan 16 15:00:24 yes Jan 16 15:00:41 poll 1= don't support 5=support Jan 16 15:00:46 5 Jan 16 15:00:50 5 Jan 16 15:00:50 5 Jan 16 15:00:55 5 Jan 16 15:01:00 5 Jan 16 15:01:03 5, subject to TWikiRelease05x00x00-style topics Jan 16 15:01:16 5 (if I may vote) Jan 16 15:01:22 SteffenPoulsen: I will do that, if we agree. Jan 16 15:01:33 6 Jan 16 15:01:37 4 for file name, 1 for topic name until issues are resolved Jan 16 15:01:52 OK, we are decided. Thanks all! Jan 16 15:01:54 5 Jan 16 15:01:56 wbniv is disqualified from future voting :) Jan 16 15:01:58 OK, with no one blocking. I think we have agreement. Jan 16 15:02:05 :-) Jan 16 15:02:10 nah, he just used 1 from his next vote.... Jan 16 15:02:10 SvenDowideit_: lol Jan 16 15:02:26 na, he's not taking it serious :) Jan 16 15:02:33 no, i'm very serious Jan 16 15:02:40 And I believe there are already action items following that for CDot. Jan 16 15:02:41 next time, i'll take one of his birthdays away Jan 16 15:02:54 please do!!!! Jan 16 15:02:57 grin Jan 16 15:03:09 only 8 lives, huh? Jan 16 15:03:10 Seriously, I need to depart in next 10 minutes. Jan 16 15:03:19 We have some other items. Jan 16 15:03:20 Only half his birthdate. No cake or presents but he still needs to buy beer Jan 16 15:03:25 :) Jan 16 15:03:29 Other items that need to happen for release Jan 16 15:03:44 already discussed release date. Jan 16 15:03:49 could anyone address my question please how to name betas and alphas? Jan 16 15:04:00 PeterThoeny, we will work it out. Jan 16 15:04:05 -alpha# Jan 16 15:04:06 -beta# Jan 16 15:04:08 -rc# Jan 16 15:04:12 Peter: do you want to say anything about release party? Jan 16 15:04:18 y - thats the morm for filename Jan 16 15:04:29 but - we'll do that offline in the topic Jan 16 15:04:31 Lynnwood: What's the plan for the Bugs web - keep all bugs there with a new attribute for release #, or? Jan 16 15:04:45 or anyone comment on release-releated items we have not discussed? Jan 16 15:04:46 topic is TWikiRelease04x00x00Beta6 Jan 16 15:04:46 hey, wait a minute please, we agreed on the file names Jan 16 15:04:46 SteffenPoulsen, there is no plan :) Jan 16 15:05:03 package is TWiki-4.0.0-beta6 Jan 16 15:05:05 we are not clear on topic naming and release naming Jan 16 15:05:07 can we follow Lynnwood ? Jan 16 15:05:21 PeterThoeny, we are clear on filename Jan 16 15:05:25 all else will follow Jan 16 15:05:30 but not now Jan 16 15:05:30 not sure I follow SteffenPoulsen question. Is that something we need to address now? Jan 16 15:05:43 PeterThoeny: release package is TWiki-4.0.0-beta6, topic is TWikiRelease04x00x00Beta6 Jan 16 15:05:44 no, add Bugs plan to next agenda Jan 16 15:05:55 added for next agenda Jan 16 15:06:30 Peter - want to say anything about release party? Jan 16 15:06:37 so the 04x00x00 part is the same for a long long time? Jan 16 15:06:50 PeterThoeny: during the betas, yes Jan 16 15:06:51 Not hearing anything else, I think we've completed agenda items. Jan 16 15:07:03 ok, thatnks Lynnwood :) Jan 16 15:07:10 Folks could feel free to continue on regarding topic naming and see if agreement can be reached. Jan 16 15:07:10 ok on release party Jan 16 15:07:24 PeterThoeny, yes, unfortunatly thats part of how it works Jan 16 15:07:29 for better and for worse Jan 16 15:07:49 i find this confusing, is this the industry standard? Jan 16 15:07:53 yes Jan 16 15:08:04 actually, we probably wouldn't really have alphas anymore Jan 16 15:08:04 Sorry, I have to bow out. Thanks to everyone for sticking with me on the process today! Jan 16 15:08:09 even in all the windows products i've released Jan 16 15:08:12 as the alpha topic says, "get the snapshot from svn" Jan 16 15:08:16 cheers lynwood! Jan 16 15:08:19 04x00x00 will be that way as lon as there are no new bug releases or cumulative patches releases Jan 16 15:08:20 l8r Lynnwood Jan 16 15:08:26 Lynnwood: see you around, thanks for now Jan 16 15:08:34 I'll leave log running to get complete discussion and post later. Jan 16 15:08:35 thanks lynnwood! Jan 16 15:08:38 :) Jan 16 15:08:50 coffee time Jan 16 15:09:04 how to name alpha snapshots then? Jan 16 15:09:05 Bye Lynnwood Jan 16 15:09:32 TWikiRelease04x00x00-alpha Jan 16 15:09:44 and next day? Jan 16 15:09:54 TWikiRelease04x00x00-alpha1, TWikiRelease04x00x00-alpha2 and so on Jan 16 15:10:06 altho, Jan 16 15:10:08 if it needs to be sortable, inject zeros Jan 16 15:10:09 like i just said Jan 16 15:10:09 same for betas and Release Candidates Jan 16 15:10:14 there really aren't alphas anymore Jan 16 15:10:17 * CDot would preer to use the SVN build no for alphas Jan 16 15:10:19 if you want an alpha, get it from svn Jan 16 15:10:22 (that's the "de facto" standard, afaik) Jan 16 15:10:25 or possibly TWikiRelease04x00x00alpha8429 Jan 16 15:10:28 ? Jan 16 15:10:30 but if we want to release alpha packages, yes, let's use the svn number Jan 16 15:10:34 (like we do now) Jan 16 15:10:38 Most projects that autogenerates daily snapshows do not at all link the release numbering with the daily names. There dates makes sense. And they are normally for development use or to confirm a bug is fixed. Jan 16 15:10:42 why would we release alpha packages? Jan 16 15:10:57 what's wrong with pseudo-install? Jan 16 15:11:00 to encourage folks who are helping to debug various issues Jan 16 15:11:03 nightly tarballs? Jan 16 15:11:04 SVN number is even better. Jan 16 15:11:05 who may not be able to pull via SVN Jan 16 15:11:11 Wohali: fair point Jan 16 15:11:21 yep on svn #s for alphas Jan 16 15:11:29 so, we can continue to do what we do now: offer 1) pull from svn, and 2) daily snapshots (which includes the svn#) Jan 16 15:11:30 ok, the build code is updated to enforce the naming scheme Jan 16 15:11:48 we already offer both of those things Jan 16 15:12:49 .. nothing like (part) consensus, *bliss* Jan 16 15:12:50 My Motion project autogenerates a SVN checkout every night. Very popular among people that want a snap when a bug is fixed. Jan 16 15:12:50 ok, upcoming beta file is TWikiRelease-4.0.0-beta6.zip, topic name is TWikiRelease04x00x00beta6, right? Jan 16 15:12:58 correct Jan 16 15:13:00 no Jan 16 15:13:03 sorry Jan 16 15:13:15 TWiki-4.0.0-beta6.zip Jan 16 15:13:23 TWiki-4.0.0-beta6.zip and TWikiRelease04x00x00beta6 Jan 16 15:13:40 the "Release" is added to make a wikiword Jan 16 15:13:47 no other reason for it Jan 16 15:13:48 i thought the topic name wasn't decided; just the filename Jan 16 15:13:48 do we need to plan for more than 9 betas? Jan 16 15:13:49 Yes. Last proposal fits well into packaging naming for rpms and debs Jan 16 15:14:01 PeterThoeny: probably not Jan 16 15:14:07 NO Jan 16 15:14:09 definitely not Jan 16 15:14:19 PeterThoeny: Nah, room for 9 rc's as well Jan 16 15:14:36 (not that I'd suggest using them all) :-) Jan 16 15:14:49 are hypens valid in topic names? Jan 16 15:14:55 SamHasler: nope Jan 16 15:15:05 what about hyphens? ;) Jan 16 15:15:22 so TWikiRelease04x00x00beta12 is hidden behind TWikiRelease04x00x00beta2, TWikiRelease04x00x00beta3 etc in the release selector in the support web Jan 16 15:15:53 yes Jan 16 15:16:34 we hopefully do not have more than 9 betas then Jan 16 15:16:46 sometimes I think that ASCII should have been designed the other way round Jan 16 15:17:20 - we can always have a panic act and release beta A by then Jan 16 15:17:31 having that many betas would be a bad sign Jan 16 15:17:35 what aboutgood point steffen Jan 16 15:17:43 nope, I think we agree on this part :-) Jan 16 15:17:48 again, like SteffenPoulsen say, can switch to rc if we were to run out of betas Jan 16 15:17:49 (sorry, mixing sentences) Jan 16 15:18:16 rc comes after beta so that fits Jan 16 15:18:18 SteffenPoulsen: excellent - and if we get to 16 betas, we can move into base 36! Jan 16 15:18:27 :-) Jan 16 15:18:29 * SteffenPoulsen laughes hysterically Jan 16 15:18:37 * wbniv slaps cdot with a wet trout :) Jan 16 15:18:49 * CDot has had too many beers to care ;-) Jan 16 15:18:50 this is really extendable :-) Jan 16 15:19:26 cdot: what sort of beer do you favour? Jan 16 15:19:37 currently, I'm on "Fink Brau" Jan 16 15:19:46 a high quality brew from...... Lidl Jan 16 15:19:50 Free Beer is always good Jan 16 15:20:00 once you reach Z you can always switch case and continue back at A :) Jan 16 15:20:04 * Wohali finds http://www.rymus.net/mt/archives/000291.html and cringes Jan 16 15:20:09 to misquote Heinlein: TANSTAAFB Jan 16 15:20:49 Wohali: it's part of my calorie-controlled diet :-) Jan 16 15:20:59 controlled for a maxima? Jan 16 15:21:35 can someone update the release naming topic with what we discussed? Jan 16 15:21:45 beta8, beta9, betaA, betaB Jan 16 15:21:48 he must have been drinking the stuff in the brown bottles Jan 16 15:22:06 heh Jan 16 15:22:20 though I confess, it's not the best beer in the world. Jan 16 15:22:27 But it's probably the cheapest. Jan 16 15:23:01 taking of beer, i would like to organize a dakar release party in the silicon valley Jan 16 15:23:10 fly me there ;) Jan 16 15:23:27 and me! Jan 16 15:23:33 I'll even come by boat Jan 16 15:23:40 i vote we use our twiki fund to buy CDot a beer Jan 16 15:23:41 it would be cool if people in europe organize one, people in apac one, and people in south america one :-) Jan 16 15:24:01 heh; "Europe" is quite abig place, as you know Jan 16 15:24:18 Europe is big? Jan 16 15:24:21 sheesh Jan 16 15:24:27 and South America, huh ? Jan 16 15:24:28 bigger than iceland Jan 16 15:24:31 * PeterThoeny looks into the empty pockets, wondring where the fund is Jan 16 15:24:36 it takes over 10 hours to go between capitol cities here Jan 16 15:24:46 I will fund the beer for CDot. Jan 16 15:24:47 next to the navel lint Jan 16 15:25:05 SvenDowideit: only because you have to fly over the uranium mines, cos it's not safe to go near them Jan 16 15:25:08 i _still_ owe CDot, COlas and Martin a few Jan 16 15:25:15 fly around Jan 16 15:25:35 well, where could we hold one in Europe? Jan 16 15:25:36 PeterThoeny: a release party in the bay area sounds good to me :) Jan 16 15:25:39 one reason for the party is the pizza and beer Jan 16 15:25:43 SteffenPoulsen: While you're editing the minutes, could you change the day under Logistics and Participants to Monday from Saturday? :) Jan 16 15:25:47 another reason is pr Jan 16 15:25:52 How about Amsterdam? Jan 16 15:25:56 * MartinCleaver is off the beer for a bit Jan 16 15:26:03 hey guys---weren't we supposed to discuss plugins this meeting ? Jan 16 15:26:09 qbfreak: done Jan 16 15:26:10 were we? Jan 16 15:26:15 ? Jan 16 15:26:17 i thought so Jan 16 15:26:25 but i don't mind shelving it to the next meeting :) Jan 16 15:26:33 i vote we delete them :) Jan 16 15:26:38 what is there to discuss? Jan 16 15:26:56 cairo and dakar versions of plugins, i guess Jan 16 15:27:01 ah yes Jan 16 15:27:03 on the release party i plan to invite people in the region Jan 16 15:27:06 knotty problem Jan 16 15:27:14 twiki.org registered users in the region Jan 16 15:27:22 also announce in codev and twiki-dev Jan 16 15:27:32 i have some contacts to the press Jan 16 15:27:33 well, my suggestion is to freeze whatever's there now as Plugin_Cairo (or something like that...) and have new development use the Plugin.zip name Jan 16 15:27:39 try to invite them as well Jan 16 15:27:57 **Plugin-4.1.12.zip you mean Jan 16 15:27:57 how many people can we expect to be there? Jan 16 15:28:00 wbniv: don't you want to extend the naming scheme to the plugins as well? Jan 16 15:28:05 maybe Jan 16 15:28:13 Plugin4 Jan 16 15:28:15 Plugin4.1 Jan 16 15:28:17 Plugin4.2 Jan 16 15:28:19 no Jan 16 15:28:26 what is the topic now? plugins or release party? Jan 16 15:28:29 following release numbering or specific plugin version? Jan 16 15:28:31 both Jan 16 15:28:33 both, I guess :) Jan 16 15:28:34 both :) Jan 16 15:28:35 please one topic at a time Jan 16 15:28:44 plugin party I guess :-) Jan 16 15:28:47 nah - it's more fun this way! Jan 16 15:28:50 lol Jan 16 15:28:59 PeterThoeny, you get used to it eventually Jan 16 15:29:17 I guess people reading the log will think of something else around this marker Jan 16 15:29:18 --------- Jan 16 15:29:23 do i read correctl;y that there is no interest in the release party? Jan 16 15:29:34 no, i'm interested Jan 16 15:29:36 very interested Jan 16 15:29:42 i think it's a good idea Jan 16 15:29:45 but the worry is that there wouldn't be enough people Jan 16 15:29:51 however, if there's enough people Jan 16 15:29:56 and press coverage, that'd be awesome! Jan 16 15:30:16 i have some ideas on "not enough people" but to early to talk about Jan 16 15:30:20 I think if you do the bay area, you have a good chance of getting people Jan 16 15:30:33 but in Europe, there is no similar "centre of mass" Jan 16 15:30:43 the developers reflect the distribution of people Jan 16 15:30:53 what about the "night in paris"? Jan 16 15:31:01 UK, Germany, France, Italy, Denmark etc. Jan 16 15:31:03 didn't happen :( Jan 16 15:31:10 Night in Paris never happened Jan 16 15:31:20 due to exactly these reasons. Jan 16 15:31:22 i couldn't due to a bad set of timings Jan 16 15:31:24 i know, but dakar release is a good oipportunity to make itr happen Jan 16 15:31:34 we could have it in dakar Jan 16 15:31:47 sure. And we should sound people out. Jan 16 15:31:50 that it :-) Jan 16 15:31:56 don't forget that the best way to get together in eu is to fly there Jan 16 15:31:58 maybe sponsor the rally? :) Jan 16 15:32:16 from zurich, it was better to fly to paris than anything else Jan 16 15:32:20 the TWiki-mobile? Jan 16 15:32:24 Wohali: Paris-Dakar? Hey, I'll drive! Jan 16 15:32:37 i think we need a twiki "non profit org" first ? Jan 16 15:32:47 now, that's a good idea Jan 16 15:32:52 * AndreU (n=AndreU@dslb-082-083-219-078.pools.arcor-ip.net) has left #twiki_dakar ("Leaving") Jan 16 15:32:54 PeterThoeny: It's a great idea, but has issues on the "money" and "time" part .. perhaps we can consider something equally memorable, but very cheap, simple and more time-condensed .. not flowing with ideas on what exactly though Jan 16 15:32:54 ok, what i need for the release party is a slide presentation with "what's new in dakar", with marketing focus on new users Jan 16 15:32:56 a TWiki FOundation Jan 16 15:33:04 y, PeterThoeny whats happening wrt a twiki foundation? Jan 16 15:33:07 Peter, didn;t you investigate that at some point? Jan 16 15:33:32 foundation: i contacted some companies Jan 16 15:33:40 there was some interest Jan 16 15:33:41 and? Jan 16 15:33:52 would there be more, or less, now? Jan 16 15:34:06 but not to the point it would allow me (or someonbe else) to get paid to do the development full time Jan 16 15:34:20 ah no, that wouldn't be the idea Jan 16 15:34:21 but surely thats not the point of a foundation? Jan 16 15:34:38 a foundation would take in the money, and dole it out to project proposals Jan 16 15:34:44 (or equipment!) Jan 16 15:34:48 like Apache foundation does Jan 16 15:34:53 or on infrastructure Jan 16 15:35:02 or be able to receive equipment, eg, dma said amd couldn't donte to a project without a legal entity Jan 16 15:35:08 it would never be big enough to just "fund people" Jan 16 15:35:10 y Jan 16 15:35:23 i certainly would like to get financial help on the hosting and on twiki pr related travel Jan 16 15:35:28 exactly Jan 16 15:35:40 that's *exactly* the sort of think it should do Jan 16 15:35:42 how much does it cost to setup a non-profit? Jan 16 15:35:43 so far i pay several $1000 per year out of my own pocket :-/ Jan 16 15:36:02 wbniv: why should it cost anything? Jan 16 15:36:11 get RMS to pay the legal fees >:-) Jan 16 15:36:16 anytime you have to file a form with the government, it costs money! Jan 16 15:36:17 i have a non-profit already in au Jan 16 15:36:23 it was free Jan 16 15:36:29 nice! Jan 16 15:36:40 (i don't know; that's *why i asked* ;-) ) Jan 16 15:36:40 my *company* didn;t cost anything to set up, and that's for-profit Jan 16 15:36:43 (i needed it to get the home.org.au domain) Jan 16 15:36:56 well, in california it costs ~US $1000 per year for a corporation Jan 16 15:37:03 20 quid in the UK Jan 16 15:37:07 wbniv: could we base the foundation in Mexico? I hear there are some great tax breaks..... Jan 16 15:37:10 y, but thats a long way down the food chain Jan 16 15:37:22 MartinCleaver: only if you want a registered company Jan 16 15:37:28 CDot: heh, sorry i don't know anything about mexican tax structure (yet:) Jan 16 15:37:31 not a legal requirement Jan 16 15:37:33 sole traders and simple registered companies are much cheaper Jan 16 15:37:39 right Jan 16 15:37:55 I would imagine the foundationw ould simply be a registered company Jan 16 15:38:06 i think theres a little more Jan 16 15:38:16 boilerplate th company mission from an existing foundation Jan 16 15:38:29 as you have to have a certain structure? Jan 16 15:38:39 (btw, http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item748 is marked as closed) Jan 16 15:38:42 non-profit, so no tax Jan 16 15:38:47 and sombody needs to manage the account, file taxes etc Jan 16 15:39:02 yes, there is that Jan 16 15:39:07 but that shouldn't be much Jan 16 15:39:17 join FSF :) Jan 16 15:39:41 it's well worth investigating further Jan 16 15:39:44 will: ok, i just changed to "waiting for feedback" Jan 16 15:40:01 there are some big companies out there who *ought* to be interested Jan 16 15:40:28 and if they were to get a say in the TWiki direction, they may be prepared to pay to get in Jan 16 15:40:46 even if it's only to make sure their backs are covered Jan 16 15:41:21 eclipse has an interestin model Jan 16 15:41:24 y, having the big corps able to participate without needing to devote a developer sounds like it might help them, and us Jan 16 15:41:32 right Jan 16 15:41:37 does anybody actually want me to look into the feels for registering a company or non-profit in mexico? Jan 16 15:41:47 I wasn't really serious Jan 16 15:41:52 good :) Jan 16 15:42:01 we would almost certainly need a Mexican national to front it Jan 16 15:42:03 s/feels/fees/ Jan 16 15:42:18 not a problem Jan 16 15:42:32 it's probably cheaper elsewhere, tho Jan 16 15:42:38 most corporate sponsors are probably in the usa, they are more easy to shell out money for a legal non profit in the usa Jan 16 15:42:41 mexico likes to charge companies for things :) Jan 16 15:42:53 no, the foundation should be set up in the bay area. An SV address would be best. Jan 16 15:43:09 so, anyone know what it costs to register a non-profit in the usa? Jan 16 15:43:19 mine is san jose, center of sv Jan 16 15:43:39 the reistration is probably a minor thing Jan 16 15:43:45 actually, proper protocol would be to rent a p.o. box Jan 16 15:43:50 (yet another (minor) expense :) ) Jan 16 15:43:54 what takes time and experience is _running_ a non profit Jan 16 15:44:07 there are certain obligations to follow Jan 16 15:44:12 http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/policy/2005/04/28/nonprofits.html Jan 16 15:44:59 * PeterThoeny wondering who is doing the admin work Jan 16 15:45:18 good starting point, thanks for sharing crawford Jan 16 15:46:40 I'd be happy to help out with the admin, if I can as a UK citizen. I seem to spent half my life talking to the tax office already :-( Jan 16 15:47:23 but I certainly can't take it all on (or even the majority) :-( Jan 16 15:47:49 a non profit needs a committee with president, treasurer etc Jan 16 15:47:53 as the article points out, recruit some accountants, etc. to form part of the board of directors Jan 16 15:48:19 perhaps in conjunction with some already existing non-profits; i'm sure we can find synergy with some! Jan 16 15:48:31 hehe, do we have amy accounting firms that use twiki ..... Jan 16 15:48:33 that is a good point Jan 16 15:48:52 i'd prefer to let experienced admin staff handle the work Jan 16 15:48:53 and a law firm Jan 16 15:49:02 PeterThoeny: definitely agreed! Jan 16 15:49:40 as soon as money is involved it needs to be handled properly and transparently Jan 16 15:49:50 yes Jan 16 15:50:12 so, about the plugins...? Jan 16 15:50:40 delete them all !!!! Jan 16 15:51:13 besides the naming, i have 2 other questions/topics: Jan 16 15:51:19 quick question before we switch topic Jan 16 15:51:25 go ahead Jan 16 15:51:46 can anyone help out in creating the slides for the release party? Jan 16 15:52:00 what does that involve? Jan 16 15:52:46 create 20-30 slides that introduce twiki and new dakar features, with marketing focus Jan 16 15:52:58 my availablility is highly variable atm :( Jan 16 15:53:37 can they not be twiki pages and hopefully the community as a whole can help create them? Jan 16 15:53:46 you know, collaboration, and all that ;-) Jan 16 15:54:15 yes, i was thinking of a slideshow in the codev web Jan 16 15:54:35 just start one, advertise it, and see what happens Jan 16 15:54:43 sounds excellent Jan 16 15:54:45 yup ; Jan 16 15:54:46 ok, i will create one Jan 16 15:54:51 I cannot make any commitment. If a bug comes up, I need to be there to fix it. Jan 16 15:55:08 and I'm also trying to earn a living in between :-( Jan 16 15:56:05 good point, my bank balance is going down and i am still spending more time on dakar and twiki.org than on earning income :-/ Jan 16 15:56:35 you have time for income? Jan 16 15:57:31 soon i will be forced to Jan 16 15:57:42 ah Jan 16 15:57:48 SvenDowideit: yep. There's a job going at Burger-King I've been considering, as a way to fund more TWiki development >:-) Jan 16 15:57:50 i've been unemployed since oct Jan 16 15:58:23 SvenDowideit - yes, but you've been on holiday for more than half of it! Jan 16 15:58:36 very true Jan 16 15:58:41 *And* you're a kept man! Jan 16 15:58:42 still gotta pay for that too Jan 16 15:58:51 well, no-one said i was silly :) Jan 16 15:58:52 quick point, please help raise the visibility of twiki on http://www.wikimatrix.org/ Jan 16 15:59:13 twiki is within the 5 most compared ones Jan 16 15:59:24 but it is not within the 5 most looked at Jan 16 16:00:28 80 or so views will bring twiki into the top 5 views Jan 16 16:00:29 what does that say? Jan 16 16:00:44 Hey guys - I'm back for a few. Saw discussion earlier about forming a non-profit. Jan 16 16:00:45 i don't think stuffing the ballot box is the answer ;-) Jan 16 16:00:45 see statistics on right side Jan 16 16:01:07 Just wanted to comment there. It's extremely easy, quick and cheap to form a non-profit. Jan 16 16:01:21 What is not quick, easy and cheap is getting tax-exempt status. Jan 16 16:01:24 did you do that lynnwood? Jan 16 16:01:29 These are two different things. Jan 16 16:01:50 FYI: I have released the edit lock on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DakarReleaseMeeting2006x01x16 Jan 16 16:01:54 tax-exempt = 501C3 (in the states Jan 16 16:02:10 but aren't taxes on profits? and so, if a "company" doesn't earn profits (because it spends everything), it doesn't have to pay taxes Jan 16 16:02:12 I've formed several non-profits. Jan 16 16:02:40 that's true. Jan 16 16:03:06 some folks talk about not-for-profits - which is essentially a non-profit without federal tax-exempt status. Jan 16 16:03:27 You need the 501c3 primarily to recieve tax-deductable gifts. Jan 16 16:03:28 * CDot thinks we've found our non-profit expert Jan 16 16:03:35 * CDot goes to bed Jan 16 16:03:40 'gnight all! Jan 16 16:03:41 CDot, good nite :) Jan 16 16:03:45 Good night Jan 16 16:03:48 later CDot Jan 16 16:03:48 * CDot (n=crawford@crawfordcurrie.plus.com) has left #twiki_dakar Jan 16 16:03:49 good night CDot Jan 16 16:04:11 Peter. Increasing with a couple of hits on wikimatrix Jan 16 16:04:45 great! Jan 16 16:04:47 for most groups, I've always recommended finding an unbrella 501c3 to channel gifts - until you get big. Jan 16 16:05:04 it's a pia to create and administer a 501c3 Jan 16 16:05:45 any idea where twiki.org could piggy-back on? Jan 16 16:05:53 FSF? Jan 16 16:06:18 fsf requires to assign copyright to them Jan 16 16:06:40 is that so bad? Jan 16 16:06:46 for code contributed or ANY associated project? Jan 16 16:07:01 not sure, needs to be investigated Jan 16 16:07:29 i thought that was just for defending your copyright, not sure if that's applicable to what we're talking about (or even if they do that sort of thing) Jan 16 16:07:40 possibly jboss? Jan 16 16:07:48 they are using twiki internally Jan 16 16:07:51 twiki is a java project? Jan 16 16:08:18 some people wish it would :-) Jan 16 16:08:22 heh Jan 16 16:08:25 blech! :) Jan 16 16:08:26 tell them to use XWiki Jan 16 16:08:32 or novell ??? Jan 16 16:08:39 they tried Jan 16 16:08:49 i'm more likely to re-write twiki in C Jan 16 16:08:51 they have a lot of connections with other oss projects (eg, gnome) Jan 16 16:08:55 they're own projects, etc. Jan 16 16:09:28 btw, the umbrella np doesn't necessarily have to be software related. Jan 16 16:09:41 will: do you mean to ask novell if they support & maintain twiki.org as a non-profit? Jan 16 16:09:43 ooo, Salvation Army TWiki Jan 16 16:09:53 :-) Jan 16 16:10:05 novell is using twiki internally Jan 16 16:10:52 no, as an umbrella to start under Jan 16 16:10:57 (like Lynnwood said0 Jan 16 16:11:02 It's possible that novell or some company of that size has an associated, low-profile non-profit that could serve the purpose we need. Jan 16 16:11:29 good point Jan 16 16:11:53 BTW, is there anywhere in the preceding discussion suggest a logical breaking point for the log to post with the meeting topic? Jan 16 16:11:56 other corporations have simmilar structure i guess Jan 16 16:12:10 sun for example is getting more oss friendly Jan 16 16:12:16 Lynnwood: i say post it all Jan 16 16:12:19 Lynnwood, use all of it Jan 16 16:12:21 yes - many corporations have non-profits for channeling r&d funds. Jan 16 16:12:23 OK Jan 16 16:12:29 sun might be another excellent possibility Jan 16 16:12:34 post all is fine Jan 16 16:12:52 they are using twiki as well in many dep Jan 16 16:13:12 sun is a very decentralized org Jan 16 16:14:06 unrelated 118n question: does twiki support right-to-left text? Jan 16 16:14:33 i am trying to complete the twiki entry on http://www.wikimatrix.org/show/TWiki Jan 16 16:15:58 sorry, dunno Jan 16 16:16:15 PeterThoeny, probably not welll Jan 16 16:16:23 as the UI's generally need tweaking Jan 16 16:17:25 sensing a lull in the conversation, i'd like to bring up my 2 questions from earlier: Jan 16 16:17:37 * ArthurClemens (n=arthurcl@aclemens.xs4all.nl) has joined #twiki_dakar Jan 16 16:17:43 i am ready (well, very soon, anyway, when i get internet access again) to setup the tinderbox and plugins demonstrations area Jan 16 16:17:57 hi guys Jan 16 16:17:59 wbniv, i think we need a new server to do that Jan 16 16:18:02 heya ArthurClemens ! Jan 16 16:18:03 is there official twiki.org horsepower/space,etc. to do that? Jan 16 16:18:07 + girl Jan 16 16:18:13 SvenDowideit_: i guess that's my question ;-) Jan 16 16:18:17 hi arthur! Jan 16 16:18:21 ok, deferring to ArthurClemens for now Jan 16 16:18:26 I had a client meeting, just came back from Adam Jan 16 16:18:30 we can get back to the other discussion afterwards Jan 16 16:18:30 i would say thats a definite no wbniv Jan 16 16:18:35 ok Jan 16 16:18:43 SvenDowideit_: how sad :( Jan 16 16:18:48 what's the idea? Jan 16 16:19:10 wbniv, wants to add more cpu, net and IO load :) Jan 16 16:19:30 and we havn't even got enough for what we do now Jan 16 16:19:56 PeterThoeny, did mention that there was some unnameable company he could tlak to Jan 16 16:20:02 but no progress report Jan 16 16:20:25 new develop.twiki.org server: pending Jan 16 16:20:26 no, i don't mean PeterThoeny is talking to microsoft :) Jan 16 16:20:40 all my time now is on dakar release and regular twiki.org maintenance Jan 16 16:21:16 right, ok, so something to discuss more after dakar release? Jan 16 16:21:27 y Jan 16 16:21:41 ok, cool Jan 16 16:21:48 what did we want to discuss with arthur? Jan 16 16:21:48 i don't really want to change anything on develop until then, due to irrational fear Jan 16 16:21:53 love :) Jan 16 16:22:01 and ART Jan 16 16:22:06 sex, drugs, and democracy ? ;-) Jan 16 16:22:11 yep Jan 16 16:22:19 HEADERART Jan 16 16:22:22 (a documentary on the netherlands i've seen :) ) Jan 16 16:22:32 and language selection Jan 16 16:22:37 ok Jan 16 16:22:40 no, i think it was ModernisePatternSkin Jan 16 16:22:43 (and language selection) Jan 16 16:22:47 thats it, all 3 Jan 16 16:22:52 I've skimmed the notes Jan 16 16:22:59 ok, afaiut, language selection doesn't affect any of the translations strings issues, right ? Jan 16 16:23:16 no, and will be optional Jan 16 16:23:24 a cookbook entry Jan 16 16:23:28 toss it into a contrib? Jan 16 16:23:30 ah Jan 16 16:23:39 perhaps, but not now Jan 16 16:23:54 ok, so a docco issue only Jan 16 16:23:57 y Jan 16 16:24:05 brill Jan 16 16:24:54 the header art image is from my wife Jan 16 16:25:01 so no copyright Jan 16 16:25:15 its unrecognizable now anyway Jan 16 16:25:17 i don't like how its 4 lines on the left Jan 16 16:25:29 and then full on the right Jan 16 16:25:46 but, thats a small thing Jan 16 16:25:56 and might be due to my exclusive use of lcd Jan 16 16:26:18 i like the latest iteration of the bg image very much Jan 16 16:26:23 4 lines only? Jan 16 16:26:34 i mean the gapped lines thing Jan 16 16:26:34 I am on lcd now Jan 16 16:26:45 the lines pattern is one on one Jan 16 16:26:46 it looks professional and does not draw attention waway from the main text Jan 16 16:26:52 ArthurClemens: Hi :-) Jan 16 16:26:54 It's a fantastastic image, goes well with TWiki - send her my greetings :-) Jan 16 16:26:58 hiya Jan 16 16:27:14 I will Jan 16 16:27:16 hey, um Jan 16 16:27:25 http://twiki.org/p/pub/Codev/ModernizePatternSkin/TWiki_header_white_and_web_.png on this lcd looks ok Jan 16 16:27:42 but on the other one upstairs, i get every 4th or so missing Jan 16 16:27:59 strange Jan 16 16:28:01 y Jan 16 16:28:09 missing colors? Jan 16 16:28:12 256? Jan 16 16:28:27 the one upstairs is one of those nice ibm thinkpad t42p 1600x1200 24 bit things Jan 16 16:28:33 running on a FireGL card Jan 16 16:28:48 antialiasing with the lcd, probably Jan 16 16:28:55 y Jan 16 16:28:56 or, aliasing, rather :) Jan 16 16:28:58 no Jan 16 16:29:05 sven: possibly screen dpi issue? Jan 16 16:29:05 i'm using the ati driver Jan 16 16:29:13 and it does antialiasing Jan 16 16:29:15 no Jan 16 16:29:20 not screen dpi Jan 16 16:29:28 but its a rendering difference Jan 16 16:29:35 one mo, i'll go upstairs Jan 16 16:30:39 mmm Jan 16 16:31:00 its that stupid thumbnail 'feature' Jan 16 16:31:16 firefox? Jan 16 16:31:16 my ff window was 95% the size of the image, so it scaled it badly Jan 16 16:31:22 hehe Jan 16 16:31:30 some tools just don't know when to quit Jan 16 16:31:51 and if you want to discuss HEADERART, please re-read http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item1368 while i go to the bathroom (back in 5) Jan 16 16:31:59 good to hear though Jan 16 16:32:00 ok, can i still set the web background colour on the top bar? Jan 16 16:32:02 i recently added several comments Jan 16 16:32:08 y, arthur added a variable Jan 16 16:32:18 (thanks arthur!) Jan 16 16:32:22 as I liked that image with the background set (as its only under the righthand swoop Jan 16 16:32:26 excellent :) Jan 16 16:33:21 i find the bg color on the right hand side too intrusive, it draws attention away from the actual content Jan 16 16:33:23 how to decide about the naming? Jan 16 16:33:33 PeterThoeny, thats why its a variable :) Jan 16 16:33:38 (I'm fine with white) Jan 16 16:33:43 the web gb color in the webleftbar's title bar is very good Jan 16 16:33:44 ArthurClemens, we were happy either way Jan 16 16:33:53 y, in the leftbar is good Jan 16 16:34:02 but i'm doing a few sites that don't have leftbar Jan 16 16:34:16 so i like to have options Jan 16 16:34:24 still a lot of work for the keeping the action button on the page Jan 16 16:34:24 sven: so you can enable that where needed Jan 16 16:34:29 yep Jan 16 16:34:47 Item1233 closed? Jan 16 16:35:20 o well, it shouldn't hold up the release Jan 16 16:35:52 y Jan 16 16:36:05 arthur: is the wrap issue resolved? Jan 16 16:36:21 no, that is the way these blocks behave Jan 16 16:36:36 they are floating Jan 16 16:36:53 no easy way to prevent wrap then? Jan 16 16:36:57 back Jan 16 16:37:00 with a table Jan 16 16:37:10 table within table within ... Jan 16 16:38:24 Also the leftbar keeps on having 1 pixel misalignment problems with my new code Jan 16 16:38:31 the wrap issue does not hold back the release Jan 16 16:38:41 So not sure when I can solve that Jan 16 16:39:20 So I rather keep what we have now and first finish other things on my platter Jan 16 16:39:46 wbniv: how do we solve the HEADERART var naming? Jan 16 16:40:04 i'm willing to defer to you about the name --- i don't really care that much Jan 16 16:40:04 but Jan 16 16:40:16 please understand my points about *how* the name is used Jan 16 16:40:30 HEADERART is fine with me Jan 16 16:40:38 I just wanted to have WEB and WIKI Jan 16 16:40:45 the WIKI* variables are supposed to go with WIKITOOLNAME, etc. for the purpose of rebranding Jan 16 16:41:02 but we don't need *2* variables; the variables have a hierarchy which nicely solves the issue Jan 16 16:41:11 that is not how people will use it Jan 16 16:41:24 because I then would prefer to have SITE Jan 16 16:41:33 SITELOGO Jan 16 16:41:43 SITELOGO = WEBLOGO Jan 16 16:41:54 SITE = site wide Jan 16 16:41:55 ok, i will sign off for some time (but will keep loging) Jan 16 16:42:00 " or better yet, have it set in Main.TWikiPreferences, and do nothing if you want a new web to have the same as the one that is site-wide. you'd only have to make a new entry if you want to change it." Jan 16 16:42:03 caio Jan 16 16:42:09 bye PeterThoeny Jan 16 16:42:22 later Jan 16 16:42:27 Bye Peter. Jan 16 16:42:30 Sorry, what is Main.TWikiPreferences? Jan 16 16:42:31 it's become time to hit the sack here, I'm off as well .. I'm glad we succeeded in keeping the meeting a bit shorter this time, allowing for a little time on other (also important) topics afterwards Jan 16 16:42:42 cya around Jan 16 16:42:49 bya Jan 16 16:42:51 :-) Jan 16 16:42:52 later :) Jan 16 16:42:53 Hej Steffen Godnat Jan 16 16:42:55 Main.TWikiPreferences is where you customise site-wide variables Jan 16 16:42:59 * SteffenPoulsen (n=step@cpe.atm2-0-1151196.0x503f90c2.arcnxx11.customer.tele.dk) has left #twiki_dakar Jan 16 16:43:06 (it survives an upgrade, whereas things in TWiki.TWikiPreferences wouldn't) Jan 16 16:43:08 TWiki.TWikiPreferences, no? Jan 16 16:43:13 no Jan 16 16:43:23 (it's actually been around since cairo, though poorly documented) Jan 16 16:43:24 since? Jan 16 16:43:29 (pre-cairo, actually) Jan 16 16:43:30 yes Jan 16 16:43:34 y,its old Jan 16 16:43:52 and much more maintainable and upgradeable than TWiki.TWikiPreferences Jan 16 16:43:57 ArthurClemens: take a look at Main.TWikiPreferences on one of your dakar installations Jan 16 16:43:58 but who uses it? noone will find it Jan 16 16:43:59 but less obvious for users Jan 16 16:44:12 http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/Main/TWikiPreferences Jan 16 16:44:18 no, it's been documented for dakar Jan 16 16:44:28 its even weirder when you change what the MAINWEB is (which i do) Jan 16 16:44:30 and, it's being pushed as the place to change globals for your site Jan 16 16:45:28 form based editing is nice. should be with every variable Jan 16 16:45:52 So SitePreferences actually then? Jan 16 16:46:41 i suppose that would have been a better name, but yes Jan 16 16:47:01 (actually, with dakar you can specify the name in configure, but that's a separate issue all together :) ) Jan 16 16:47:45 Then why do we have a WEBLOGO, and not just LOGO? Jan 16 16:48:01 ah ha!!!! Jan 16 16:48:03 thank you!!! Jan 16 16:48:08 now you see why... Jan 16 16:48:19 that is the different between WIKILOGO and WEBLOGO Jan 16 16:48:23 WEBLOGO is the the webs Jan 16 16:48:30 while WIKILOGO is the logo for the tool itself! Jan 16 16:48:37 WIKILOGO has been subverted into meaning something Jan 16 16:48:38 different Jan 16 16:48:43 which i still plan on fixing... Jan 16 16:48:57 If only the docs Jan 16 16:49:19 because I have written to set WEBLOGO = WIKILOGO Jan 16 16:49:32 y, and i need to repair that :) Jan 16 16:49:53 so this is for TWiki.org only, who wants a TWiki logo on their own site? Jan 16 16:50:09 what? Jan 16 16:50:17 no, it's about REBRANDING twiki Jan 16 16:50:31 many many sites use the twiki logo Jan 16 16:51:00 at least, that's how i tool the WIKITOOLNAME to mean Jan 16 16:51:06 and continued that use with the LOGOS Jan 16 16:51:08 laziness! (like myself) ha Jan 16 16:51:16 see http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/DakarReleaseNotes#WEBLOGONAME_WEBLOGOIMG_WEBLOGOUR and http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/DakarReleaseNotes#WIKILOGOIMG_WIKILOGOURL_WIKILOGO Jan 16 16:51:21 maybe, or maybe they like it :) Jan 16 16:51:56 besides, it'll be easy to repair the WIKILOGO stuff because you didn't update the docs ;-) Jan 16 16:52:05 ok, so what i'm feeling is: Jan 16 16:52:17 do you want to call it WEBHEADERART ? Jan 16 16:52:23 (no need for WIKIHEADERART) Jan 16 16:52:39 and the proper docs, and the normal preferences inheritance/overriding will do the trick Jan 16 16:52:59 yes, to be consistent I feel it should be WEBHEADERART Jan 16 16:53:36 ok, let's call it WEBHEADERART Jan 16 16:53:40 and not change anything else Jan 16 16:53:43 agreed ? Jan 16 16:53:44 And then plug Main.TWikiPreferences Jan 16 16:53:48 y Jan 16 16:53:49 right Jan 16 16:53:53 ok, cool Jan 16 16:54:06 sweet, another thing done :) Jan 16 16:54:23 ok then, another (relatively small) action item for me Jan 16 16:54:32 well gentlemen, i think we're done for today then :) Jan 16 16:54:38 thanks for joining us ArthurClemens Jan 16 16:54:54 any other objections to anything??? Jan 16 16:54:59 ok, glad I could hop in in the end Jan 16 16:55:07 yup, me Jan 16 16:55:08 2 Jan 16 16:55:13 :) Jan 16 16:55:27 All others are asleep or drinking Jan 16 16:55:48 Or doing what they should be doing at 0:55 hours Jan 16 16:55:50 let's hope not both! Jan 16 16:56:12 I thought it went pretty good today overall. What do you think? Jan 16 16:56:17 yep Jan 16 16:56:24 quite productive Jan 16 16:56:36 resolved the many year old naming issue too Jan 16 16:56:53 Sven, you have an alarming score on your release naming scheme Jan 16 16:57:08 If we could continue this for a few months - even if participation ebbed and vaned - we could accomplish quite a bit Jan 16 16:57:10 thats the funny thing Jan 16 16:57:15 its not mine Jan 16 16:57:25 i just think we should do it cos its the standard Jan 16 16:57:27 of course, its old Jan 16 16:57:29 no, it's "STANDARD" :) Jan 16 16:57:58 what will happen to the code names? Jan 16 16:58:30 we didn't discuss it, but as I understand it, nothing keeps us from having informal code names. Jan 16 16:58:32 * Soronthar has quit (Connection timed out) Jan 16 16:58:41 luckily only a few casualties in this year's Dakar Jan 16 16:58:46 i guess they'll continue to be as invisible to end users as they always have been Jan 16 16:58:54 (the code names, that is) Jan 16 16:59:03 only a few casualities? Jan 16 16:59:13 more? Jan 16 16:59:14 casualities? Jan 16 16:59:24 casualties Jan 16 16:59:40 i don't understand... Jan 16 16:59:46 which casualties? Jan 16 16:59:50 the race? Jan 16 16:59:52 developers??? Jan 16 16:59:53 or what? Jan 16 17:00:00 Dakar rally Jan 16 17:00:11 I don't think he's referring to my fingers worn to a nub on irc. Jan 16 17:00:17 that is what people know Jan 16 17:00:37 cars, and some dead people Jan 16 17:01:05 that is what people who have been around and on twiki.org know; the random person/company that downloads twiki doesn't know that Jan 16 17:01:17 but they will know TWiki-4.0.0 :=) :) ;-) Jan 16 17:01:44 righteo, I will try to catch some sleep Jan 16 17:01:55 past one now Jan 16 17:02:01 sleep well ArthurClemens ;) Jan 16 17:02:06 night Jan 16 17:02:09 ! Jan 16 17:02:10 they will probably know it as twiki 4 Jan 16 17:02:15 * ArthurClemens has quit ("Leaving") Jan 16 17:02:33 y, right Jan 16 17:02:36 ok, i'm gone too Jan 16 17:02:41 bye all Jan 16 17:02:59 caio Jan 16 17:03:10 * wbniv (n=wbniv@red-corp-200.76.234.37.telnor.net) has left #twiki_dakar ("Konversation terminated!") Jan 16 17:06:18 Also good night from me Jan 16 17:08:14 night :) Jan 16 17:17:40 * MartinCleaver has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jan 16 17:37:38 * SamHasler has quit ("(-_-)zzz") Jan 16 17:44:03 * Wohali (n=joant@hatest2.gol.ad.jp) has left #twiki_dakar Jan 16 18:17:04 I tell ya, keeping up with all these updates is something else... :) Jan 16 18:17:31 I start svn update and go to dinner, come back and there's two more revs to go :) Jan 16 18:23:36 grin Jan 16 18:23:44 thats the nice thing about the internet Jan 16 18:23:49 it never sleeps Jan 16 18:36:19 heh Jan 16 18:37:30 it would seem that I may have crashed a friend's server with aspell... Jan 16 18:37:47 I was moving my bot so I can reinstall here and I did a quick test of his helper scripts Jan 16 18:37:48 thats dark magic Jan 16 18:38:06 you should beware dark magic, it is seductive Jan 16 18:38:11 he's supposed to be the wizard! Jan 16 18:38:46 he might be, but are you? Jan 16 18:38:59 * SvenDowideit_ cues eliza Jan 16 18:39:05 I'm a lowly warlord (second highest admin rank, below wizard :) Jan 16 18:39:23 ah, well, beward the dark magic Jan 16 18:40:07 ah yeah, now I see it, his vitrue is 0, he could be either good or bad very easilly :) Jan 16 18:40:26 that is dangerous Jan 16 18:40:43 don't want a twiki too near the dark side Jan 16 18:43:06 next thing you know it'll start using a dark skin, its all downhill from there Jan 16 18:43:55 you know, this goes to show that you can never have too many linux boxes up and running :)