[12:52pm] gmc joined the chat room.
[12:55pm] ColasNahaboo joined the chat room.
[1:00pm] OliverKrueger joined the chat room.
[1:00pm]OliverKrueger:HelloWorld
[1:01pm]ColasNahaboo:Hello all
[1:01pm]peterthoeny:hi colas, koen, oliver, sven (already up?)
[1:01pm]gmc:hi
[1:02pm]Lavr:Hello
[1:02pm]peterthoeny:kenneth is in germany (cebit?) and will participate
[1:02pm]Lavr:Yes I am in my hotel room
[1:02pm]peterthoeny:hi kenneth!
[1:02pm]OliverKrueger:Where are you atm, Lavr?
[1:03pm]peterthoeny:thanks for participating while on a trip
[1:03pm]Lavr:I am at Hotel Jägerhof in Langenhagen close to the airport incompatible encoding
[1:03pm] LarsEik joined the chat room.
[1:04pm]OliverKrueger:Funny. Its only a few kilometers away from here.
[1:04pm]Lavr:Cool
[1:04pm]peterthoeny:may be you can get together?
[1:05pm]Lavr:I am trying to meet with Andre tomorrow also
[1:05pm]OliverKrueger:oic
[1:05pm]peterthoeny:enneth, may be you can have a jaegerschnitzel and a jaegermeister at
       the jaegerhof
[1:05pm] ArthurClemens_ joined the chat room.
[1:05pm]ArthurClemens_:hi all
[1:05pm]gmc:hya
[1:05pm]Lavr:I had the most perfect steak here at the hotel tonight
[1:05pm]OliverKrueger:Hi ArthurClemens_
[1:06pm]peterthoeny:hi lars, hi arthur!
[1:06pm]LarsEik:hi folks
[1:06pm]ColasNahaboo:Hi Arthur
[1:06pm]OliverKrueger:Hi Lars
[1:06pm] tibaza joined the chat room.
[1:06pm]peterthoeny:are you at cebit kenneth?
[1:07pm]OliverKrueger:Is there any other reason to come to Hannover?
[1:07pm]peterthoeny:hi tibaza, welcome here. could you state your twiki.org username?
[1:07pm]Lavr:Yes I am speaking at the Enterprise2.0 Summit
[1:07pm]tibaza:oh - sorry perhaps I shouldn't be here...
[1:07pm]peterthoeny:cool
[1:07pm]Lavr:www.enterprise2.0-summit.de
[1:07pm]Lavr:Presenting the Motorola quality management system on TWiki
[1:07pm]peterthoeny:tibaza: stick around if you are interested in the twiki dev
[1:08pm]LarsEik:Lavr: you must blog about it on twiki.org then
[1:08pm]Lavr:Sure - that gives something to blog about
[1:08pm]peterthoeny:this is good pr for the open source twiki project
[1:09pm]Lavr:yes. And for Motorola
[1:09pm]peterthoeny:
[1:09pm]peterthoeny:shall we start with the meeting?
[1:09pm]peterthoeny:who is facilitating, who is taking notes?
[1:09pm]Lavr:Let me start updating the minutes with who are here
[1:09pm]peterthoeny:thanks
[1:10pm]peterthoeny:i can facilitate
[1:10pm]gmc:i'm on a crappy umts connection atm so not realy a suitable person for either
[1:10pm] ArthurClemens_ is now known as ArthurClemens.
[1:10pm] ktwilight joined the chat room.
[1:10pm]ktwilight:hi all
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:hi ktwilight
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:proposed agenda:
[1:11pm]ktwilight:hi peter
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:# 1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:# 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:anything to add?
[1:11pm]peterthoeny:---++  1. Review Urgent Bugs with 4.2.1 scope
[1:12pm]peterthoeny:Desired outcome: Identify owners for urgent bugs; decide on release date

       of 4.2.1
[1:12pm]peterthoeny:wow, 15 release blockers
[1:12pm]Lavr:Yes I think we need to get 4.2.1 out within the next 3 weeks. We have some
       nasty bugs and we also have some easy doc bugs.
[1:12pm]•gmc is frantically looking for the url
[1:12pm]ArthurClemens:top of the window
[1:13pm]gmc:ah tnx
[1:13pm]ArthurClemens:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker
[1:13pm]Lavr:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x03x03 has
       links to the bugs I want to cover incl some notes I added
[1:13pm]peterthoeny:ok, lets go one by one
[1:13pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4863
[1:14pm]Lavr:Item4863: RcsWrap does not support RcsDirs
[1:14pm]peterthoeny:Bugs:Item4863 - RcsWrap does not support RcsDirs - Can we dump this
       feature or is it generally used by some customers who will be in trouble at next
       upgrade?
[1:14pm]Lavr:There is a suggestion to dump the feature of having ,v files in subdirs.
[1:14pm]peterthoeny:that is the question kenneth asks in the minutes topic
[1:14pm]ArthurClemens:I have no idea
[1:15pm]ColasNahaboo:having RCS dis divide by 2 the number of files in a dir
[1:15pm]Lavr:At least the reporter must have done it
[1:15pm]peterthoeny:i'd say it is a nice to have feature
[1:15pm]gmc:well someone reported the bug..
[1:15pm]ColasNahaboo:may be useful for performance of wikis with big dirs?
[1:15pm]peterthoeny:if we have test cases and committed developers we should keep it alive
[1:15pm]OliverKrueger:do you have data on the performance?
[1:15pm]peterthoeny:if not it might be better to remove the feature
[1:16pm]Lavr:I wonder how long it has been broken
[1:16pm]gmc:well, aren't we breaking backward compatibility by removing it?
[1:16pm]Lavr:If it has been broken since Cairo then it cannot be important.
[1:16pm] unixhag joined the chat room.
[1:16pm]Lavr:If it broke during 4.2.0 development then I am not sure we can just remove it
[1:17pm]peterthoeny:hi unixhag
[1:17pm]OliverKrueger:we do not need to be backward compatible with bugs.
[1:17pm]peterthoeny:yes, good point
[1:17pm]unixhag:Hi Peter, hi all
[1:17pm]OliverKrueger:+1 for dumping
[1:17pm]gmc:OliverKrueger: it was a feature once..
[1:17pm]ArthurClemens:can we test the brokenness?
[1:17pm]ColasNahaboo:from sven comments (many bugs) it seems quite broken in many ways
[1:17pm]ktwilight:that bug has nothing to do with attachment revisions right? 'cuz i don't
       quite understand it.
[1:17pm]OliverKrueger:it was meant to be a feature once.
[1:18pm]gmc:hi unixhag
[1:18pm]ktwilight:it happens for new webs that has attachments?
[1:18pm]Lavr:No TWiki actually allows (on the paper) that ,v file is in a sub dir to the
       data dir for each web
[1:19pm]peterthoeny:his feature was primarily done for sites that have > 10k pages in a web
[1:19pm]Lavr:I will not miss it but I want to make sure we do not create big trouble for
       upgraders.
[1:19pm]gmc:going over the comments in the bug report, i tend to +1 on dumping
[1:20pm]ktwilight:ah
[1:20pm]Lavr:I will raise a feature proposal that suggests deprecation and no fixing and
       then let us see the reaction.
[1:20pm]peterthoeny:one issue is that we cannot simply dump it according to our deprecation
       policy
[1:20pm]ktwilight:Lavr, +1 and remove it by 5.0 if we don't hear anything?
[1:21pm]peterthoeny:according to policy we should announce a feature change one release
       ahead of changing feature
[1:21pm]ColasNahaboo:Lavr +1. On big dirs I guess the answer would be: if you have 10k+
       users, use ldap
[1:21pm]peterthoeny:however, in this case it is not a feature change, it is a configuration
       change
[1:22pm]Lavr:For an upgrader it would be copying all the ,v files back into the web dir ,
       right?
[1:22pm]ColasNahaboo:yes
[1:22pm]peterthoeny:yes
[1:22pm]ktwilight:an easy task.
[1:22pm]Lavr:Then it is not such a bad thing to deprecate because there is a workable way
       out which only takes minutes to perform
[1:23pm]peterthoeny:question i have is if we should make that fool prove by:
[1:23pm]OliverKrueger:if the performance impact is not too high.
[1:23pm]peterthoeny:1. check if ,v file in web dir
[1:23pm]peterthoeny:2. if not, check if there is one in the rcs subdir
[1:24pm]peterthoeny:3. if so move the file from the subdir to the web dir
[1:24pm]Lavr:The reason for throwing it out is that noone want to fix it.
[1:25pm]Lavr:So fixing + adding additional functions seems a bit unrealistic to think of
[1:25pm]ktwilight:wouldn't that be a performance hit?
[1:26pm]peterthoeny:twiki already now checks for missing ,v file (it creates one and creates
       a rev 2 for the updated content)
[1:26pm]peterthoeny:so there is no additional runtime impact
[1:26pm]peterthoeny:for normal case
[1:27pm]unixhag:unix directories containing more than N files give a performance hit, not
       sure the value of N, but I was bitten badly with another app a few years ago,
       can't remember all details tho
[1:27pm]peterthoeny:i would say, lets dump the feature, but make it resilient to the rcs in
       subdirs as indicated above
[1:27pm]unixhag:the difference between <N and >N files was massive
[1:27pm]Lavr:If we end up fixing the code to work + more then we may as well keep it
[1:28pm]unixhag:but the feature is worse than useless if it doesn't work, which IMHO it
       never has
[1:28pm]ColasNahaboo:<unixhag> unix directories containing more than N files give a
       performance hit - no you can set things up
[1:28pm]ColasNahaboo:http://ygingras.net/b/2007/12/too-many-files%3A-reiser-fs-vs-hashed-paths
[1:29pm]peterthoeny:the reiser fs can handle more files than the standard file systems
[1:29pm]ColasNahaboo:plain ext3 is even faster than reiser
[1:29pm]ArthurClemens:are we still on topic?
[1:29pm]ColasNahaboo:no
[1:29pm]ArthurClemens:that was bug 1?
[1:30pm]Lavr:We have to remember that the main thing in 5.0 is to change storage model and
       then this feature probably becomes even less important. I say it is a waste of time
       to try and fix it.
[1:30pm]unixhag:ColasNahaboo: that's linux-specific
[1:30pm]Lavr:I will raise a proposal topic and add myself as concern so the proposal does
       not get 14 day accepted.
[1:30pm]Lavr:If someone screams I pull it back.
[1:30pm]Lavr:We also post it in news letter as deprecation warning
[1:30pm]peterthoeny:wow, ext3 with dir_index is very fast
[1:30pm]ColasNahaboo:off-topic: if you worry about perrformance you should not be using
       windows in the first place
[1:30pm]peterthoeny:thanks for the pointer colas
[1:31pm]unixhag:I agree don't keep the feature. ColasNahaboo: Tru64 if you want to know
[1:31pm]peterthoeny:ood idea of posting in newsletter
[1:32pm]peterthoeny:who is writing a blog article?
[1:32pm]ColasNahaboo:no kidding? you are using OSF/1???
[1:32pm]peterthoeny:s/odd/good/
[1:32pm]Lavr:NEXT
[1:32pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item4946
[1:32pm]Lavr:Item4946: urlDecode() not working for characters represented by Unicode code
       points
[1:33pm]Lavr:I had hoped our new friend Sopan would want to box with this I18N thing.
[1:33pm]Lavr:All previous patches have been confirmed to either harm or at least not work.
[1:34pm]peterthoeny:sopan is in the silicon valley for an extended period of time, however,
       right now he is in india for two weeks, back in mid march
[1:34pm]Lavr:OK. Did he confirm that he will look at it? I only suggested it to him. I
       cannot make him
[1:34pm]peterthoeny:hideyo posted several revised patches
[1:35pm]peterthoeny:i think he tested it a lot with japanese
[1:35pm]Lavr:ThYang confirmed them to not work.
[1:35pm]peterthoeny:yes
[1:35pm]ColasNahaboo:better a partly working fix for 4.2.1 rather than no fix, no?
[1:36pm]Lavr:I am not sure that we have that
[1:37pm]Lavr:Let us move on.
[1:37pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5118
[1:37pm]Lavr:Item5118: Difference from 4.1.2 - 4.2: Apache loginname no longer works with
       access control lists
[1:37pm]Lavr:This was deferred from 4.2.0. But I see no trace of any signal that Sven
       intends to fix it for 4.2.1
[1:38pm]Lavr:So someone else needs to take over the mapping code.
[1:38pm]peterthoeny:this one is really a show stopper because not everyone can use the
       ldapcontrib (due to performance)
[1:39pm]Lavr:This worked in both Cairo and 4.1.X and it must work again in 4.2.1. It is a
       typical feature required in large corporations using SSO
[1:39pm]peterthoeny:yes
[1:40pm]ColasNahaboo:well, if it is of use for corporations... can TWiki.net help us on this?
[1:40pm]Lavr:Anyone wants to look at this bug. It requires good perl skills because the
       mapping code is a bit complexe. I have tried myself but gave up on it
[1:41pm]peterthoeny:colas: i can ask (although we are behind schedule already and have not
       yet moved to 4.2)
[1:42pm]peterthoeny:this might be a good one for sopan
[1:42pm]peterthoeny:let me send him an e-mail
[1:42pm]Lavr:OK. Thanks
[1:42pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5135
[1:43pm]Lavr:Item5135: EditTablePlugin must disable initsort when editing table TABLE tag to
       work with new move row feature
[1:44pm]Lavr:THis is a simple matter of making the code that parses the topic take into consideration a tag that was on previous line.
[1:44pm]ArthurClemens:I believe that is my call
[1:44pm]ArthurClemens:but I have a lot on my plate lately
[1:44pm]ArthurClemens:but unless someone else steps in...
[1:45pm]Lavr:Well at least we have an owner. And this one has a work around. We can survive
       it. But it would be nice if it was fixed for 4.2.1. I have another for you Arthur
       which is more important
[1:45pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5176
[1:45pm]Lavr:Item5176: %SCRIPTSUFFIX% is added twice in TOC links
[1:45pm]peterthoeny:time check: +45 min
[1:45pm]ArthurClemens:Damocles
[1:45pm]Lavr:Colas you seem to be close a fix
[1:45pm]ColasNahaboo:yep, I think it is OK
[1:45pm]Lavr:OK counting on you then
[1:45pm]peterthoeny:cool, thanks colas!
[1:46pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5206
[1:46pm]Lavr:Item5206: Image not shown , when inserting image with Image button and not
       using any path
[1:46pm]ArthurClemens:this one and http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5375
[1:46pm]ArthurClemens:(wrong path)
[1:46pm]Lavr:Yes. Is it TMCE or the Wysiwyg plugin that is a issue?
[1:46pm]ArthurClemens:it must have sneaked in just before release
[1:47pm]ArthurClemens:I have no idea
[1:47pm]Lavr:This is one that I would have expected Crawford to fix in 10 seconds. But he
       seems to have stopped fixing bugs
[1:48pm]Lavr:So anyone else that feels like taking a stab at this?
[1:48pm]Lavr:This is one we need to have fixed for 4.2.1. along with its brother 5375
[1:49pm]ArthurClemens:I can have a look to see if it brings us any further
[1:49pm]Lavr:Cool
[1:49pm]peterthoeny:wow, thank you arthur, you already have so much on your plate!
[1:49pm]gmc:sorry.. walked off for a bit.. keeping my driver awake..
[1:50pm]Lavr:Item5283: EditTablePlugin dollar percent expansion does not work correctly
[1:50pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5283
[1:50pm]gmc:seems easy, shall i have a look at that?
[1:50pm]Lavr:This is the one Arthur that - if you have time - I find the most important.
       Even reverting back to how it was before is OK
[1:50pm]ArthurClemens:I think more is broken on that
[1:51pm]Lavr:The problem with this bug is that there is not even a work around.
[1:51pm]ArthurClemens:last time I checked it worked different than the doc says
[1:51pm]ArthurClemens:a workaround would be to make a special case for CALC
[1:51pm]gmc:hmm, i might not understand what is wrong her then
[1:51pm]Lavr:I mean - no workaround for the user.
[1:52pm]Lavr:Unlike the TABLE EDITTABLE bug where you can just swap the tag order
[1:52pm]Lavr:I will continue. I am sure we can find one for you gmc
[1:53pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5311
[1:53pm]Lavr:Item5311: deep recursion in getEmails()
[1:53pm]Lavr:There is a fix but I am waiting for Michael is answer if it should be merged
       into T42 branch. And if it is safe to do it
[1:53pm]Lavr:SO MIchael when you read the log. Spend 5 mins on this one please.
[1:53pm]peterthoeny:let me send an email to michael asking if he could look at this
[1:54pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5341  -  Item5341:
       Simplify subversion organisation
[1:54pm]Lavr:I am not clear of it is over and if the T42 branch also will be reorganized.
[1:54pm]Lavr:If so I would like to wait till AFTER 4.2.1 to spend the effort on what is
       urgent and important
[1:55pm]Lavr:That was my statement to the log
[1:55pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5345
[1:55pm]Lavr:Item5345: Logging in as admin still redirects to main home
[1:55pm]Lavr:That one surprises me and I meant to try and reproduce but forgot. Is this
       really back?
[1:55pm]Lavr:It has been fixed at least twice
[1:56pm]ColasNahaboo:I think it still happens yes
[1:56pm]Lavr:From the TWikiAdminGroup topic?
[1:56pm]Lavr:Or is there another place with a bad link?
[1:56pm]ArthurClemens:yes it still happens
[1:56pm]ColasNahaboo:it happens only in some cases if I recall
[1:57pm]ArthurClemens:no, every time
[1:57pm]ArthurClemens:to me at least (template login)
[1:57pm]Lavr:Ah. I always test this with ApacheLogin
[1:57pm]ArthurClemens:but then I also have the bug that "remember me" does not log me in
[1:57pm]ArthurClemens:the checkbox at login screen
[1:58pm]ArthurClemens:I have it with all my sites, but other cannot reproduce it
[1:58pm]ColasNahaboo:I can try to have a go
[1:58pm]Lavr:Maybe gmc can look at this one? SHould not be difficult.
[1:58pm]ColasNahaboo:Lavr: "famous last words"
[1:58pm]Lavr:
[1:59pm]Lavr:gmc don't hide  we can see you
[1:59pm]gmc:sure, put me down for this one
[1:59pm]Lavr:Thanks
[1:59pm]peterthoeny:thank you koen!
[1:59pm]gmc:we just drove into the parking garage
[1:59pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5374
[1:59pm]gmc:so i'm afk for 5 minutes while i take the elevator to my appartment
[1:59pm]Lavr:Item5374: After copy paste a link, the document isn't saved    (WYSIWYG)
[2:00pm]Lavr:I am not sure this bug is really still there. I think I remember it was fixed.
       I think I will email the reporter and make him reproduce it on e.g. my test server
[2:00pm]Lavr:We covered 5375
[2:01pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5391
[2:01pm]Lavr:Item5391: Dragging corners of table removes TML markup
[2:01pm]Lavr:Another one that has until now been Crawfords domain.
[2:01pm]peterthoeny:time check: +60 min (lets try to limit to +90 min)
[2:01pm]Lavr:I am worrying about what a fix can lead to though.
[2:02pm]Lavr:Making Wysiwyg plugin turn too much from HTML to TML also means that tables
       that should remain HTML may get converted. It is a hairfine balance.
[2:02pm]Lavr:It would be nice if we could DISABLE features that do not really work in the TMCE.
[2:02pm]ColasNahaboo:this work
[2:03pm]ColasNahaboo:but fixing it means a lot of work
[2:03pm]Lavr:This one is not a simple one.
[2:03pm]ColasNahaboo:basically you want to enhance tinyMCVE to have it display a feedback to
       tell if the table is in TML or HTML mode
[2:03pm]ArthurClemens:does it have to do with the initial table settings in the table popup?
[2:03pm]ColasNahaboo:initially it is in TML state
[2:03pm]ArthurClemens:no, it is about a TML table
[2:04pm]ColasNahaboo:if you by mistake resie it it go into HTML state
[2:04pm]ColasNahaboo:but user is anaware
[2:04pm]ColasNahaboo:so fixing this is quite involved
[2:04pm]Lavr:Yes because the table gets some attribute that makes the Wysiwyg plugin say
       "This is an HTML table that I will not convert to TML"
[2:05pm]ColasNahaboo:but you have both cases: user really want the new width to be respected,
       and user just want a TML table
[2:05pm]Lavr:It has some criteria that makes it decide to convert or not. TMCE always saves
       tables in HTML. Wysiwyg converts to back to TML
[2:05pm]peterthoeny:georgeclark, the bug poster, suggests to convert html table attributes
       to %TABLE parameters
[2:05pm]Lavr:Yes. And that is good - if it is possible.
[2:06pm]Lavr:TML combined with TABLE cannot do all that HTML can
[2:06pm]ktwilight:that sounds hella lotta work
[2:06pm]peterthoeny:possible solution? - add a hint at the time of tml > html what type of
       table it is, and use that hint when converting back from html to tml
[2:07pm]Lavr:ANyone wants to LOOK at it without committing to fix and put some analysis in
       the bug item?
[2:07pm]ColasNahaboo:I can
[2:07pm]Lavr:Cool thanks
[2:07pm]peterthoeny:thank you colas
[2:07pm]Lavr:Near the end
[2:07pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5288
[2:07pm]Lavr:Item5288: META tag doesn't call expandStandardEscapes() and crashes on MAIN
[2:08pm]Lavr:This is only in MAIN and out of scope for 4.2.1    SO not urgent
[2:08pm]Lavr:for 4.2.1  but a release blocker for 5.0 naturally
[2:08pm]Lavr:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5410
[2:08pm]Lavr:Item5410: WebSearchAdvanced does not regex search when you select that it should
[2:08pm]Lavr:I will take that one
[2:08pm]peterthoeny:thanks kenneth
[2:09pm]Lavr:That is the end of the ones I wanted to cover.
[2:09pm]peterthoeny:what about Bugs:Item5393 - Adding bullet right after a heading adds
       annoying html paragraph tags - Wysiwyg/TMCE
[2:09pm]Lavr:There are a few more which are doc bugs with owners
[2:09pm]peterthoeny:http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5393
[2:09pm]Lavr:Oh I missed that
[2:09pm]Lavr:THAT ONE i personally HATE
[2:09pm]Lavr:THis is a really annoying bug
[2:10pm]peterthoeny:this one sounds like an upstream bug
[2:10pm]peterthoeny:of the tinymce editor
[2:11pm]Lavr:Could be.
[2:11pm]Lavr:It would be risky to let Wysiwyg plugin strip leading and trailing <p> I guess
[2:12pm]Lavr:The work around I have found is to select all the bullets and un-bullet them.
       And then bullet them again. Then the <p>s go away
[2:12pm]peterthoeny:hat might be a viable workaround fix
[2:12pm]ColasNahaboo:I can have a go
[2:12pm]peterthoeny:i have never seen the need for a p tag at the beginning of a bullet
[2:13pm]peterthoeny:i have seen though <p /> at the end of a bullet to create a visual space
[2:13pm]OliverKrueger:a webdesign sin
[2:13pm]gmc:which is not how you should be using xhtml tags i guess....
[2:13pm]ColasNahaboo:although I do not manage to reproduce it
[2:13pm]Lavr:Maybe you need IE to reproduce
[2:14pm]Lavr:I am not sure.
[2:14pm]ColasNahaboo:ah ah... IE6 or IE7?
[2:14pm]Lavr:I use IE6 at work and there I see the annoyance all the time
[2:14pm]ColasNahaboo:mmm I dont know if I have access to an IE6
[2:15pm]Lavr:Where I sit now I only have my work laptop and it only has IE6 so I cannot try
       IE7 now.
[2:15pm]peterthoeny:kenneth suggests a desired release of 4.2.1 at the end of march, e.g.
       in 4 weeks from now
[2:15pm]ColasNahaboo:ok, I'll have a go
[2:15pm]Lavr:Thanks
[2:15pm]peterthoeny:thank you colas!
[2:15pm]Lavr:OK. Yes Peter. I suggest 4 weeks from now.
[2:15pm]peterthoeny:looks like a good goal to shoot for
[2:16pm]Lavr:I would gladly release in one week but it is not realistic to fix all the bugs
       in one week
[2:16pm]peterthoeny:---++  2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release
[2:17pm]Lavr:Note on http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/Item5307. We now
       have TWO confirmations from bug reporters that my fix works. So I will post that
       fix on the known issues topic
[2:17pm]peterthoeny:cool
[2:17pm]Lavr:On feature requests. I chose not to bring any forward even if I could have. I
       thought the roadmap confirmation was more important
[2:18pm]peterthoeny:on feature requests, there are two items:
[2:18pm]Lavr:We promissed at the Summit that we would follow up with an open debate on Codev.
[2:18pm]peterthoeny:1. review proposed features that need attention
[2:18pm]peterthoeny:2. review and sign of on roadmap
[2:19pm]peterthoeny:time check: +80 min
[2:19pm]Lavr:I always add the ones I think are ready for voting on the agenda. Today I chose
       to bring none and instead only talk roadmap.
[2:19pm]peterthoeny:fine by me
[2:19pm]peterthoeny:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiRoadMap
[2:19pm]Lavr:Also because deciding on the roadmap almost auto accepts some of the open
       proposals
[2:20pm]Lavr:As people will notice only Sven raised a change and I think it is an easy one
       to accept.
[2:21pm]peterthoeny:what was svens input?
[2:21pm]Lavr:So I see that as a sign that the roadmap is good and matches what most of us
       expect of TWiki a year from now
[2:21pm]Lavr:(added after summit) - simplifying upgrades is one of the major requirements
       for MoveableTypeSkin, which decouples the TWiki's look and feel from TWiki
       features, creating a css based design environment which will not require changing
       as TWiki changes.
[2:21pm]Lavr:It is a comment.
[2:22pm]Lavr:And it is part of the thing I want to raise discussion on.
[2:22pm]peterthoeny:ah, as such it falls under "UI: Stable template baseline for skins"
[2:22pm]Lavr:What do we mean with "Stable template baseline for skins"
[2:22pm]Lavr:We decided not to decide on that at the Summit because the skin experts were
       not present
[2:22pm]ArthurClemens:well, for long it was not possible to have a css based default skin
[2:22pm]peterthoeny:skins typically do not survive a twiki upgrade
[2:23pm]ColasNahaboo:For instance, I am making my skin for my personal skin a akin on top
       of pattern
[2:23pm]Lavr:Arthur I see on some of your latest bug items that you have started addressing
       some of the upgrade issues
[2:23pm]peterthoeny: think the goal is to define and document a baseline that all skin
       authors can assume to use
[2:23pm]ColasNahaboo:I hope my work will survice patterne volutions
[2:24pm]ColasNahaboo:I hope my work will survive pattern evolutions
[2:24pm]ArthurClemens:pattern should be fairly stable now
[2:24pm]Lavr:Peter. That that is what I wanted when I raised this item at the Rome Summit
[2:24pm]ArthurClemens:lack of documentation is the reason pattern skin has broken things
       in the past
[2:24pm]ArthurClemens:there has not been a "way to do templates"
[2:25pm]ColasNahaboo:Either this, or a document stating what the engine expect from a skin
       nowadays
[2:25pm]peterthoeny:related to this, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/SimplifySkinCreation
[2:25pm]ArthurClemens:the templates have undergone changes
[2:25pm]Lavr:Yes also that.  But to make skins (and plugins that rely on templates) we
       need to agree and document the template elements and files that defines the common
       elements in the TWiki UI.
[2:25pm]peterthoeny:e.g. make it very easy for integrators to create a skin with the
       corporate branding look
[2:25pm]ColasNahaboo:I tried to do a skin from scratch and gave up. now the engine xpect a
       lot from skins (seraches, ...)
[2:26pm]ArthurClemens:I actually mean lower level documentation
[2:26pm]peterthoeny: created a skins from scratch two years ago, it took me over one week
[2:26pm]ArthurClemens:for new skin authors
[2:26pm]Lavr:Just a simple thing. The BlackListPLugin no longer shows a correct oops based
       message because the templates have changed.
[2:27pm]ArthurClemens:that may be. is it documented, or part of a test?
[2:27pm]Lavr:I raised a bug item on it today
[2:27pm]Lavr:I noticed when I tested my upload fix and tried with a topic containing
       naughty words
[2:28pm]ArthurClemens:since 2003 I have just worked my way through it
[2:28pm]peterthoeny:we do not need to go into details today on skins
[2:28pm]peterthoeny:i'd like to get a feel where we stand on the roadmap
[2:28pm]Lavr:If we agree that it is a valid bullet on the roadmap when the next step is to
       raise the right proposals on Codev and take it from there. Scope is 5.0. Not 4.2.X
[2:29pm]ColasNahaboo:Actually, I think the goal should be more "automatic updates"
[2:29pm]Lavr:The skin experts are Michael and Arthur more than anyone else. I would hope
       that during the next 3-4 months we see some proposals on the topic.
[2:30pm]ColasNahaboo:skin update is part of it.
[2:30pm]peterthoeny:quick poll: on scale of 1 (absolutely yes!) to 6 (no way), how much
       can you identify yourself with the stated roadmap?
[2:30pm]Lavr:I say 1
[2:30pm]peterthoeny:time check: +90 min (let's try to wrap up)
[2:30pm]peterthoeny:1
[2:31pm]gmc:1
[2:31pm]ArthurClemens:1
[2:31pm]ktwilight:1
[2:31pm]ColasNahaboo:1 (especially for entreprise use)
[2:32pm]ArthurClemens:It will be enough to eat my free time
[2:33pm]peterthoeny:wow, that is amazing!!! it means that the skip can steer into one
       overall direction
[2:33pm]Lavr:Yes we will not be bored.
[2:33pm]peterthoeny:s/skip/ship/
[2:33pm]ktwilight:
[2:33pm]peterthoeny:ko, i need to sign off
[2:33pm]peterthoeny:s/ko/ok/
[2:34pm]Lavr:I knew we were not far apart as a community. I have been monitoring the new
       proposals and we all want the same. That is a STRONG plus on the project.
[2:34pm]peterthoeny:please look out for potential contributors
[2:34pm]peterthoeny:let's coach them to get on board
[2:34pm]Lavr:There is one in particular
[2:34pm]Lavr:(lloking for a link)
[2:35pm]LarsEik:Lavr: Gilmos? TWikiStandAlone
[2:35pm]Lavr:Yes http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiStandAlone
[2:36pm]Lavr:Gilmar has worked on the side in his own branch. Attention has been low. Now
       it is time to merge. I encourage everyone to read his proposal carefully. It
       contains a lot of interesting stuff.
[2:37pm]ArthurClemens:It is a bit hard on the technical side
[2:37pm]peterthoeny:that one looks promising! (gotta go now, thanks all, good meeting!)
[2:37pm]ArthurClemens:what is the benefit for me?
[2:37pm]ArthurClemens:WIFME
[2:37pm]Lavr:Yep. Then ask questions. I have same problem.  Benefits...
[2:37pm]gmc:performance!
[2:37pm]Lavr:The stand alone itself is an often asked for feature.
[2:38pm]Lavr:People want to be able to run TWiki on their local machine without a whole
       virtual machine with apache and the works.
[2:38pm]Lavr:This could be a step in that direction.
[2:38pm]LarsEik:The performance is seems great. I run it on my laptop for testing and then
       I dont need no apache or other webserver for that.
[2:39pm]ktwilight:i would be interested to see which parts can be merged into the core, and
       see what sort of improvements it can do. looks like he has good understanding of the
       core?
[2:39pm]Lavr:But Gilmar at the end proposes some general core changes for performance which
       we need to split out in new proposals
[2:39pm]ktwilight:how far off is he with 'fork' and current 4.2?
[2:39pm]ArthurClemens:he has done a lot of merges
[2:39pm]ktwilight:is it possible to quickly create something on the 4.2 branch and test it out?
[2:40pm]Lavr:I think he is pretty close to trunk
[2:40pm]Lavr:He has been merging in fixes also
[2:40pm]ktwilight:cool
[2:40pm]LarsEik:The  easiest is to download the tgz and unpack it
[2:40pm]Lavr:I did not even try that
[2:40pm]ktwilight:hm, and move data + pub over i guess
[2:40pm]ktwilight:uh, copy.
[2:41pm]ktwilight:sounds like TWikiOnUSBStick isn't a dream after all
[2:42pm]ArthurClemens:i have no idea how it works
[2:42pm]ArthurClemens:it looks like a standard twiki download
[2:42pm]gmc:ArthurClemens: ah, but there's an extra script in bin/
[2:42pm]ArthurClemens:so I would need to set bin permissions
[2:42pm]gmc:or was it tools..
[2:43pm]gmc:rtfm
[2:44pm]LarsEik:unpack to /var/www/twiki; then cd /var/www/twiki/bin &&
       ../tools/twiki_http.pl --port 80
[2:45pm]LarsEik:You need a copy of a LocalSite.cfg
[2:46pm]ArthurClemens:Can't locate LWP/MediaTypes.pm in @INC
[2:46pm]ArthurClemens:so it does need CPAN
[2:47pm]ArthurClemens:ok , I am off
[2:47pm]ArthurClemens:getting late already
[2:47pm]ArthurClemens:cheers all
[2:47pm]Lavr:We are also done with the points I had on the agenda
[2:47pm]Lavr:Thanks everyone