Date: October 27, 2008 3:57:32 PM PDT

[12:02pm] CDot1 joined the chat room.
[12:03pm] Topic changed to "http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x10x27" by CDot1.
[12:34pm] FranzJosefGigler joined the chat room.
[12:45pm] FranzJosefGigler left the chat room.
[12:45pm] EugenMayer joined the chat room.
[12:45pm]EugenMayer:Hello
[12:46pm]EugenMayer:CDot1: are you arround?
[12:48pm]OliverKrueger:What time is it in London?
[12:49pm]gmc:19:42 i guess
[12:49pm]gmc:its 20:42 in .nl
[12:49pm]OliverKrueger:so it starts in 10min?
[12:49pm]gmc:think so yes.. but we just had wintertime.. so it might all be a mess.. lets
        check the world clock
[12:49pm]gmc:i believe cdot is having dinner atm btw
[12:50pm]OliverKrueger:daylight saving just changed here, too. Thats why Im asking.
[12:51pm]gmc:ah.. ntpd was not running.. it's 8:51 here
[12:52pm]OliverKrueger:7 mins,... gone forever...
[12:52pm]gmc:19:51 in london indeed, according to the/a world clock
[12:52pm] TomBarton joined the chat room.
[12:54pm]EugenMayer:Hi Tom
[12:55pm]EugenMayer:Hi Marcus
[12:55pm]OliverKrueger:Hi Tom.
[12:55pm]TomBarton:Hello
[12:57pm]EugenMayer:So the meating starts in some minutes or am i wrong?
[12:58pm]gmc:you're not wrong, unless i am too
[12:58pm] Lavr_ joined the chat room.
[12:58pm]EugenMayer:i used the "meating" word again
[12:58pm] SopanShewale joined the chat room.
[12:59pm]gmc:
[12:59pm]PeterThoeny_:hi andre, crawford, eugen, koen, kenneth, oliver, sopan, sven, tom, markus
[12:59pm]EugenMayer:i mean, whats wrong? it sounds the same
[12:59pm]EugenMayer:Hi Peter
[12:59pm]OliverKrueger:Hi Peter.
[12:59pm]PeterThoeny_:who is actually at the keyboard?
[12:59pm]Lavr_:Kenneth is
[12:59pm]•gmc <==
[12:59pm]OliverKrueger:Markus is set to "away".
[1:00pm]OliverKrueger:so as CDot
[1:00pm]gmc:i'll be mostly in lurking mode though, i've caught a bug again
[1:01pm]OliverKrueger:Im busy with some kinosearch issues, too. Please shout, if you want me
        to comment on something.
[1:01pm] will_t1 joined the chat room.
[1:01pm]PeterThoeny_:hi will
[1:02pm]PeterThoeny_:who will be facilitating? who will be taking notes?
[1:03pm]PeterThoeny_:proposed agenda items are posted at 
        http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x10x27
[1:03pm]PeterThoeny_:# 1. Review Urgent Bugs - for TWiki 4.2.4
[1:03pm]PeterThoeny_:# 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release
[1:03pm]PeterThoeny_:i would like to start with a new agenda item
[1:03pm]PeterThoeny_:---++ Relaunch TWiki.org Project
[1:04pm]PeterThoeny_:http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RelaunchTWikiOrgProject
[1:04pm]PeterThoeny_:please review, i also sent this content to twiki-dev and twiki-announce
[1:05pm]OliverKrueger:Did you change the default skin?
[1:05pm]PeterThoeny_:yes
[1:05pm]PeterThoeny_:that is one of the changes
[1:05pm]EugenMayer:looks a lot better. Not perfect, but years better.
[1:06pm]PeterThoeny_:once arthur's twiki.org specific skin is ready we can change it to his
[1:07pm] MichaelDaum__ joined the chat room.
[1:07pm]EugenMayer:PeterThoeny_: just to get one point, t.n. is not heading to follow the
        debian licence model for projects, because there are believes, the trademark can
        then not be protected by t.n?
[1:08pm]gmc:just one question peter, this is it now? either go with t.n or not?
[1:08pm]OliverKrueger:Are there any news related to the "negotiations" between t.n. and "us"?
[1:08pm]CDot1:here now; was eating supper, sorry
[1:08pm]OliverKrueger:Hi CDot.
[1:09pm]PeterThoeny_:hi crawford
[1:09pm]gmc:the AgreeToTermsOfUse links is broken btw
[1:09pm]MichaelDaum__:OliverKrueger, yes
[1:09pm] MichaelDaum__ is now known as MichaelDaum.
[1:09pm]OliverKrueger:Hi Michael
[1:09pm]PeterThoeny_:let's use the first part of this meeting as a q&a on the new governance
        model
[1:09pm]EugenMayer:I mean, you are using a chart to show up, that ubuntus way must be the
        better one, because there are more downloads. But this is missing a fact, that ubuntu
        is more likely a desktop solution while debian is more likely one for the server
        ( what is interesting for us mostly ) . So thats why downloads for ubuntu are raising
        ( linux just spreads more and more ) but linux has its place in the server-world for
        a long time.
[1:09pm] GilmarSantosJr joined the chat room.
[1:09pm]PeterThoeny_:kenneth: how much time do you need for bugs review and feature proposals?
[1:10pm]PeterThoeny_:hi gilmar!
[1:10pm]Lavr_:0. There is no point
[1:10pm]OliverKrueger:Hi Kenneth, hi Gilmar
[1:10pm]EugenMayer:(Hello all together)
[1:10pm]GilmarSantosJr:hi everybody
[1:10pm]PeterThoeny_:ok, let's spend some time discussing the change
[1:12pm] Lynnwood joined the chat room.
[1:12pm]PeterThoeny_:hi lynnwood
[1:12pm]Lynnwood:greetings all
[1:12pm]EugenMayer:Hi
[1:12pm]PeterThoeny_:thanks koen, i fixed the link to agreetotermofuse
[1:13pm]PeterThoeny_:wow, we never had such good turnout at a release meeting!
[1:14pm]•OliverKrueger will need a few mins to read the ToU.
[1:14pm]Lavr_:So in summary. The elected interim governance team is discarded by TWiki.net,
        The BDFL is back, we have to accept TWiki.nets terms of use, TWiki will not be lead
        by an association.
[1:15pm]PeterThoeny_:correction: s/twiki.net/twiki.org/
[1:15pm]PeterThoeny_:please take your time to read the new content
[1:15pm]OliverKrueger:I guess, this will be another very short meeting then.
[1:16pm]Lavr_:No this is TWiki.net's terms of use. We did not agree on this as a community.
        All the vandalism you did on TWiki.org is a dictate.
[1:16pm]CDot1:seems that way.
[1:16pm]TomBarton:We definitely do not believe that complete democratization is the best
        approach, but there may be a role for an association in the future.  I think the
        association point is the least of our worries though
[1:16pm]EugenMayer:PeterThoeny_: i still wait for an answer though.
[1:16pm]MichaelDaum:To all. This was not discussed with the Interim Board of Directors _AT ALL_
[1:17pm]PeterThoeny_:eugen, could you restate your question, i am not sure i understand
[1:17pm]MichaelDaum:These changes have been made just a minute before this meeting started.
[1:18pm]EugenMayer:PeterThoeny_: t.n. is not going to support / bring us a licence which
        respects debians way of "open source projects" because t.n. fears / feals, they
        cannot protect _their_ trademark then?
[1:18pm]Lavr_:"Peter Thoeny, the Founder of the project, and TWIKI.NET, collectively own the
        trademarks to the TWiki project, who have the sole discretion in decisions related
        to these matters.
[1:18pm]gmc:i don't think this is a constructive proposal by twiki.net
[1:18pm]Lavr_:"
[1:18pm]TomBarton:At this point the TWiki.org project does not recognize the authority of
        the interim governance council
[1:18pm]gmc:TomBarton: ask yourself, does the community recognize the authority of twiki.net ?
[1:19pm]MichaelDaum:Why did you do that?
[1:19pm]TomBarton:the beautiful thing about open source is you don't need to recognize the
         authority of TWiki.net!
[1:19pm]PeterThoeny_:eugen: the main reason to not go with the debian approach is my believe
        that it is not beneficial to the twiki project, but the ubuntu is: 
        http://twiki.org/p/pub/Codev/RelaunchTWikiOrgProject/debian-ubuntu-s.png
[1:19pm]PeterThoeny_:the tm question is secondary
[1:19pm]OliverKrueger:and ask yourself, who is the community, if the the people showing up
        here every day.
[1:19pm]EugenMayer:gmc: thats a bad question, we are not here to fight that way i think,
        though i fully understand your feelings.
[1:19pm]TomBarton:to explain ourselves, our reasoning was pretty simple
[1:20pm]TomBarton:we just didn't think that the twiki project was moving in the right
        direction
[1:20pm]EugenMayer:i repeat PeterThoeny_, you chart is useless because :
[1:20pm]EugenMayer: mean, you are using a chart to show up, that ubuntus way must be the
        better one, because there are more downloads. But this is missing a fact, that
        ubuntu is more likely a desktop solution while debian is more likely one for the
        server ( what is interesting for us mostly ) . So thats why downloads for ubuntu
        are raising ( linux just spreads more and more ) but linux has its place in the
        server-world for a long time.
[1:20pm]OliverKrueger:s/the/not/
[1:20pm]MichaelDaum:TomBarton, but we did all of the coding!
[1:20pm]TomBarton:and we didn't think that the problems in the community were solveable with
        a totally democratic approach
[1:20pm]TomBarton:and the code is free - michael - you are entitled to it under the GPL
[1:20pm]EugenMayer:TomBarton: but the community itself believes so.
[1:20pm]TomBarton:again, the beautiful thing about open source
[1:21pm]PeterThoeny_:eugen: i am referring to the governance, not the use of software
[1:21pm]Lavr_:I think I just saw the ugly face of open source.
[1:21pm]OliverKrueger:If this is what you want, why didnt you tell us at the summit?!
[1:21pm]MichaelDaum:There is no beauty in T.N's recent moves.
[1:21pm]OliverKrueger:absolutely not
[1:21pm]TomBarton:fair question oliver - at the summit, we genuinely wanted to avoid a fork
[1:21pm]EugenMayer:iam not fully with you MichaelDaum, i like the skin
[1:22pm]SopanShewale:yes.. the Skin is good
[1:22pm]Lavr_:This has nothing to do with skins.
[1:22pm]TomBarton:however, after a lot of reflection as to what is best for the project, and
        of course for twiki.net, we changed course
[1:22pm]OliverKrueger:EugenMayer: The skin was there before.
[1:22pm]EugenMayer:It was a joke(@all)
[1:22pm]TomBarton:i know that people will probably not believe us, but we believe that we
        have the best interests of the project at heart (not just twiki.net)
[1:23pm]CDot1:I do not believe you, frankly.
[1:23pm]MichaelDaum:TomBarton, I would never have contributed years of my life working on
        ubuntu.
[1:23pm]CDot1:I believe you have the best interests of twiki.net at heart, and nothing else.
[1:23pm]gmc:i second that
[1:24pm]EugenMayer:Sorry Tom and Peter, you just discarded nearly anthing the _community_
        has worked from the summit ( even the council ), you discarded what they agreed
        and voted on and put your opinion and believes above all that heads and you want
        us to like that. That is, not to be to harsh, ignorant.
[1:24pm]TomBarton:you guys are definitely entitled to your opinions, but I maintain that
        the project was mired with infighting and wasn't going to work
[1:24pm]MichaelDaum:are you going to work on the current codebase on your own from now on?
[1:25pm]PeterThoeny_:i would like to second tom's remark on twiki.net working for the project,
        i made a promise in june last year, and we executed all along:
        http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiDotNet#PeterStatement22Jul2007
[1:25pm]gmc:TomBarton: i believe you don't have a proper perspective on what caused the 
        infighting in the first place, your proposal shows this..
[1:25pm]TomBarton:we invite any and all developers (including you should that unlikely event
         occur!) to continue with the project
[1:25pm]gmc:TomBarton: not that i blame you, you are relatively new to the project
[1:25pm]gmc:not that i'm an old-timer for what it matters..
[1:26pm]MichaelDaum:"should that unlikely event occur" what do you mean?
[1:26pm]TomBarton:sorry - was a lame attempt at humor, but the point is genuine, we would
        like people to continue with the project
[1:26pm]Lavr_:I personally cannot continue under these conditions. I am sorry.
[1:26pm]MichaelDaum:But, Tom, don't you see how unlikely this is.
[1:27pm]MichaelDaum:Most most most probably, all will just leave.
[1:27pm]MichaelDaum:and you are on your own with your business plan
[1:27pm]CDot1:some people will continue, I'm sure.
[1:27pm]MichaelDaum:don't you think you have put TWiki.net in a very dangerous position?
[1:28pm]TomBarton:I hope that's not the case Michael - although I would not be surprised if
        some people decide it's not for them.  we also think that things might change over
        time of course
[1:28pm]GilmarSantosJr:I just looked twiki.org before the meeting and I'm scared about all
        this
[1:28pm]GilmarSantosJr:very very disapointed
[1:28pm]AndreU:Gilmar, we are all scared about the ignorance of twiki.net
[1:28pm]MichaelDaum:Tom, so you propose to us, that we fork?
[1:28pm]MichaelDaum:why don't you?
[1:29pm]OliverKrueger:why now?
[1:29pm]GilmarSantosJr:I think actions like that just put people away from the project
[1:29pm]PeterThoeny_:the main focus is the twiki mission, roadmap and charter,
        http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCharter
[1:29pm]TomBarton:of course we don't propose that you fork.  but you are free to do so.
[1:29pm]CDot1:your actions appear designed to force exactly that
[1:29pm]EugenMayer:Oh, ne words.
[1:29pm]EugenMayer:*new
[1:30pm]MichaelDaum:of course  we are able to fork. thats part of open source. but you
        havent left much of a choice to us using this shock therapy
[1:30pm]GilmarSantosJr:i fully agree with CDot
[1:30pm]MichaelDaum:Tom, this is killing TWiki.
[1:31pm]MichaelDaum:and with it TWiki.net
[1:31pm]TomBarton:i don't think so.  i actually think it's the only thing that will save it
[1:31pm]EugenMayer:So you used the time from the summit till now to keep us waiting to have
        your time to change the project the way ( FORCED ) to try to keep as many as
        possible pepole to t.o. when the others fork. Well, thats a kindly move.
[1:31pm]OliverKrueger:Is there anything left to say?
[1:32pm]TomBarton:no - we actually were on a path toward negotiating, but changed our minds
        after careful review of the letter from the Interim Governance team (which came a
        few weeks after the summit)
[1:33pm]MichaelDaum:you even gave us a very positive reply in the meantime. "very likely that
        we accept" etc
[1:33pm]gmc:that's sad to hear
[1:33pm]EugenMayer:Ok, so this is what you do. Your position now is, accept the terms or
        leave, no further discussion i guess, right tom?
[1:33pm]gmc:but somehow not much of a surprise
[1:33pm]TomBarton:michael, at the time, I meant that.  (sorry if it's hard to believe).
        our strategy change was very recent
[1:33pm]PeterThoeny_:obviously emotions are running high, i would ask that everybody takes
        time to review the new material to make an informed decision
[1:33pm]PeterThoeny_:i am open to questions now on irc, e-mail or phone
[1:34pm]CDot1:there is very little there that is new
[1:34pm]Lavr_:Well. We are all basically being kicked out.
[1:34pm]EugenMayer:Lavr_: jap.
[1:34pm]Lavr_:Unless we say "Heil Peter".
[1:34pm]CDot1:that appears to be the bottom line.
[1:35pm]MichaelDaum:This is the end of TWiki as I know it.
[1:35pm]OliverKrueger:true
[1:35pm]CDot1:tbh, after this action I have lost all the trust I had (slowly been rebuilding
         since the summit) in Peter.
[1:35pm]EugenMayer:No doubt
[1:35pm]Lavr_:Yep. The question now is - what name do we give the fork?
[1:35pm]OliverKrueger:TPFKATDO
[1:35pm]EugenMayer:I LIKE THIS
[1:35pm]EugenMayer:what is this?
[1:35pm]CDot1:I'm sure we can come up with something good.
[1:35pm]OliverKrueger:The Project formerly know as TWiki Dot Org
[1:36pm]EugenMayer:CDot1: finally even i will start to contribute.
[1:36pm]CDot1:EugenMayer: no! spare us!
[1:36pm]EugenMayer:NO!
[1:36pm]gmc:so, i guess this meeting is over and the community reconvenes somewhere else?
[1:36pm]EugenMayer:I will "officelize" you
[1:37pm]MichaelDaum:PeterThoeny_, TomBarton: how will you handle our code when we go away?
        Will it still be there?
[1:38pm]TomBarton:of course!  we will continue to fully comply with the GPL etc.
[1:38pm]PeterThoeny_:the point is to give many people the chance to contribute to the twiki 
        project that has a web 2.0 focus
[1:39pm]EugenMayer:does web2.0 develop itself?
[1:39pm]OliverKrueger:ugc
[1:40pm]PeterThoeny_:we just had RansRajah registering on twiki.org, agreeing to the terms
        of use: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/RansRajah
[1:41pm]OliverKrueger:congrats
[1:41pm]EugenMayer:That mist be the new web2.0 guy
[1:41pm]gmc:PeterThoeny_: well i wish you and RansRajah a lot of luck with your new course
[1:41pm]PeterThoeny_:thank you!
[1:41pm]EugenMayer:good luck on this boat people, best wishes.
[1:41pm]EugenMayer:bye
[1:41pm] EugenMayer left the chat room. ("Konversation terminated!")
[1:42pm]CDot1:I don't think there is any more to discuss here.
[1:42pm] CDot1 left the chat room.
[1:42pm] gmc left the chat room.
[1:43pm]OliverKrueger:God bye, and thanks for all the fish.
[1:43pm]OliverKrueger:Good
[1:43pm] OliverKrueger left the chat room. ("Konversation terminated!")
[1:43pm]GilmarSantosJr:I'm very sad with all this
[1:43pm]GilmarSantosJr:good luck to you
[1:43pm]GilmarSantosJr:bye
[1:43pm]PeterThoeny_:thanks, bye
[1:43pm] GilmarSantosJr left the chat room. ("Konversation terminated!")
[1:44pm] uebera||afk is now known as uebera||.
[1:44pm]uebera||:hi there and bye
[1:45pm]PeterThoeny_:by markus
[1:45pm]PeterThoeny_:any questions at this time?
[1:48pm]Lavr_:RIP
[1:48pm] Lavr_ left the chat room.
[1:50pm] TomBarton left the chat room.
[1:51pm]PeterThoeny_:i assume the meting is done
[1:51pm] MichaelDaum left the chat room. ("irc client terminated")
[1:52pm]Lynnwood:thoroughly done
[1:52pm]Lynnwood:i'm sorry to say