Date: March 1, 2012 10:39:32 PM PST Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x03x02.txt [9: 01pm] PeterThoeny: hi george, imazu-san, heather! [9: 02pm] GeorgeTrubisky: hi peter [9: 02pm] himazu: hi peter [9: 02pm] PeterThoeny: i am just coming from the silicon valley perl group [9: 02pm] PeterThoeny: interesting presentation about mongodb [9: 02pm] starshine: cool [9: 04pm] PeterThoeny: i am toying around with the idea to add a nosql backend to twiki [9: 04pm] starshine: it would be popular [9: 04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: http://www.mongodb.org/ [9: 04pm] PeterThoeny: mongodb or chouchdb would be good options, probably better suited for twiki than hadoop [9: 04pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes! [9: 05pm]  MichaelGulitz joined the chat room. [9: 05pm] PeterThoeny: guten morgen michel! [9: 05pm] himazu: it might be interesting if there is a concrete example to make use of a cloud strage such as Amazon S3 [9: 05pm] PeterThoeny: "michael", sorry [9: 05pm] PeterThoeny: must be very early for you [9: 05pm] MichaelGulitz: Hello everybody! [9: 05pm] MichaelGulitz: Yes indeed [9: 06pm] PeterThoeny: 6am? [9: 06pm] MichaelGulitz: Yep [9: 06pm] PeterThoeny: thanks for joining the meeting! [9: 06pm] starshine: hi PeterThoeny [9: 06pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  i met ian, he is doing a good job leading the perl group [9: 07pm] starshine: perl is a passion for him, I would hope so [9: 07pm] PeterThoeny: he is now working at tivo doing perl stuff [9: 07pm] PeterThoeny: he likes the new job [9: 08pm] starshine: yay! [9: 08pm] PeterThoeny: all:  ian kluft was writing the openid integration for twiki [9: 08pm] PeterThoeny: he was doing consulting for tiki in in the past [9: 09pm] PeterThoeny: i can't type, "twiki" not "tiki" [9: 09pm] starshine: are enough of us here to start? [9: 10pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +10 min [9: 10pm] PeterThoeny: yes, lets start [9: 10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x03x02 [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: agenda: [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: i propose we quickly handle 1 and 2 and spend more time on 3 [9: 11pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9: 11pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals [9: 12pm] PeterThoeny: no new proposals to discuss [9: 13pm] PeterThoeny: shall we look at a few of the in work or accepted ones? [9: 13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/MoveChangeFormFromEditToMoreScreen - is work in progress [9: 14pm] PeterThoeny: almost done, but i actually discovered a bug introduced by this feature [9: 14pm] starshine: stopping bugs early is good! [9: 14pm] PeterThoeny: on develop.twiki.org twiki when you add a comment to a bug using the comment box, some form fields are replaced by "1" text [9: 14pm] PeterThoeny: i have this on my to-do to fix [9: 15pm] PeterThoeny: this is only in trunk [9: 15pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebExtraAttributeRepository [9: 15pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san, do you want to discuss anything about the web extra attribute? [9: 16pm] himazu: at this point, the description on the page is all I can say. [9: 16pm] PeterThoeny: ok [9: 16pm] himazu: i will elaborate later. [9: 16pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/DatabaseStore [9: 16pm] PeterThoeny: this is an old proposal on hold [9: 17pm] PeterThoeny: let me create a brainstorming topic on a nosql db backend [9: 17pm] PeterThoeny: a nosql might be better suited for twiki than a sql [9: 17pm] PeterThoeny: for two reasons [9: 18pm] PeterThoeny: 1. data replication for multi-site is easy [9: 19pm] starshine: pluggable backend shim, and then either?  more complex but ... people who have a local favorite storage method might then love it best [9: 19pm] PeterThoeny: 2. nosql data is json (at least in mongodb), so can map directly to twikiforms based tables [9: 19pm] starshine: hm multi site is important [9: 19pm] starshine: real enterprise level = multi continent [9: 19pm] PeterThoeny: twiki actually already has a pluggable database store [9: 20pm] PeterThoeny: probably not 100% ready, but should be not too hard to plug in a nosql [9: 20pm] starshine: means more work to reach the parent copy, if a local-mirror was smart but still allowed editing somehow... [9: 20pm] starshine: good first effort then, it'll knock some dust off the mantle [9: 20pm] PeterThoeny: yes, the devil is in the details [9: 20pm] PeterThoeny: but it is solvable [9: 20pm] starshine: start small, make bigger stuff later [9: 20pm] PeterThoeny: yep [9: 21pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have on features [9: 21pm] PeterThoeny: any other feature to look at? [9: 22pm] MichaelGulitz: I had added the http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ControlledTopicPermissionInheritance [9: 22pm] MichaelGulitz: I think for enterprises twikis this is a important usability feature [9: 22pm] PeterThoeny: oh, how could i miss that? [9: 22pm] MichaelGulitz: YOu already added a comment on it [9: 23pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i remember [9: 23pm] PeterThoeny: ah, it did not show up in the feature list because not marked for jerusalemrelease [9: 23pm] PeterThoeny: your proposal is good [9: 24pm] PeterThoeny: put your name as committed developer and set the date and the proposedfor field [9: 25pm] PeterThoeny: if you are adventurous you could investigate and implement a true parent-child inheritance for topic permissions [9: 25pm] starshine: if there was a way for an admin logged in to see the extra trait somehow, that would be interesting, but not needed for initial implementation [9: 25pm] MichaelGulitz: I#m not sure if I can implement it - i am a real perl newbie [9: 26pm] starshine: people already have experience with filesystems that offer this behavior, so the ui is not as hard to imagine [9: 26pm] PeterThoeny: you can give it a try, we are here to help [9: 26pm] starshine: MichaelGulitz:  that's ok, plan it, when the parts are down to cogs, lots of people can help [9: 26pm] •starshine high fives PeterThoeny for thinking the same [9: 27pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9: 27pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki4/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/ReleaseBlocker [9: 27pm] PeterThoeny: GeorgeTrubisky:  anything you'd like to cover? [9: 27pm] PeterThoeny: again, no fires going on on the bug front [9: 27pm] GeorgeTrubisky: on bugs?, no [9: 28pm] starshine: I had promised to look at two of these [9: 28pm] starshine: since we want to be short on part two, I'll try [9: 28pm] PeterThoeny: and? [9: 28pm] starshine: a. I got busy, my efforts are barely started. [9: 29pm] PeterThoeny: ok [9: 29pm] PeterThoeny: please keep us posted next time [9: 29pm] starshine: b. IE8 and IE7 both have issues re utf8 on their own [9: 29pm] starshine: esp chinese [9: 29pm] starshine: oh I did look, I just think I have more work to do [9: 29pm] PeterThoeny: i would not spend too many cycles on ie7 [9: 29pm] starshine: me eiher [9: 30pm] starshine: *either [9: 30pm] starshine: the "large" element is a side effect of that clientside bug, and is probably not ours to solve [9: 31pm] PeterThoeny: these are TWikibug: Item5926 & TWikibug: Item5437 starshine is talking about [9: 31pm] starshine: c. tinymce tweaks for utf8 are probably more doable, I found a couple good links that are not too ancient and therefore might be valid help. [9: 31pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout:  252 seconds) [9: 32pm] PeterThoeny: good [9: 33pm] PeterThoeny: any other bug to look at? [9: 33pm] starshine: anyways IE9 is the current version, so if you like, I will try to craft some polite way to tell end users the clientside fix for 7 and 8 and we can scratch that off as retest. [9: 33pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, we lost imazu-san [9: 33pm] GeorgeTrubisky: irc.freenode.net not so good for japan [9: 34pm] starshine: oops [9: 34pm] starshine: d. do we still have someone to validate the chinese/utf8 presentation bug? [9: 35pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  that is also an answer, we can raise the bar to require ie9 for wysiwyg editing if needed [9: 35pm] starshine: if not, we can documnt, but actual fix must defer. [9: 35pm]  himazu joined the chat room. [9: 35pm] PeterThoeny: welcome back himazu-san [9: 35pm] starshine: welcome back himazu-san [9: 36pm] himazu: my 3G connection sometimes has problems [9: 36pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san could potentially help test the bug [9: 36pm] starshine: you missed:  ie7/8 chinese font is client side, ie9 is current, we need retest to see if still problem. [9: 37pm] starshine: I can accept task for document client-side helpfulness for 7/8 [9: 37pm] starshine: oh? that'd be cool [9: 37pm] PeterThoeny: i think that is a reasonable solution [9: 38pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san:  could you test the ie7/ie8 issue if needed by starshine? [9: 38pm] himazu: I'm using IE7 at work. So I may be able to participate Chinese testing. [9: 38pm] starshine: ok [9: 38pm] starshine: it's a plan [9: 38pm] PeterThoeny: good [9: 38pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. TWiki Foundation Discussion & how to attract more developers [9: 39pm] PeterThoeny: first i'd like to welcome himazu-san as an official developer [9: 39pm] starshine: [9: 39pm] PeterThoeny: he got svn access this week [9: 39pm] PeterThoeny: himazu-san:  now you are armed and dangerous [9: 39pm] starshine: I'm only dangerous, not armed [9: 39pm] starshine: I have access and promptly forgot my password ages ago [9: 39pm] himazu: i'll try not to be dangerous. [9: 40pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  it is your twiki.org twiki password [9: 40pm] PeterThoeny: if forgotten you can reset on twiki.org [9: 40pm] starshine: excellent!  thx [9: 40pm] PeterThoeny: it will sync within 15 min to develop.twiki.org [9: 40pm] starshine: ok [9: 40pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Read error:  Connection reset by peer) [9: 40pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, we lost him again [9: 40pm] starshine: oops there goes his link [9: 41pm] •starshine gets out the bungee cord [9: 41pm] starshine: this time we hook him to a chair [9: 41pm] PeterThoeny: hehe [9: 41pm] PeterThoeny: the other news you all know is:  i decided to leave twiki inc [9: 42pm] PeterThoeny: now i am a free bird [9: 42pm] •GeorgeTrubisky free [9: 42pm] starshine: It is vaguely possible that while I am being nosy into tinymce I may find us parts of other bug solutions too [9: 42pm] PeterThoeny: doing consulting and looking for new optty [9: 42pm] MichaelGulitz: We are working with the university of münster again on twiki stuff so I will try to get them involved in the community incompatible encoding [9: 42pm] PeterThoeny: and i am now more flexible to work on twiki.org community matters [9: 42pm] starshine: as I mentioned on FB, I think getting a new view of the world will be refreshing [9: 43pm] PeterThoeny: thanks MichaelGulitz, appreciated! [9: 43pm] starshine: universities are good, students like tinkering and exploring [9: 43pm] starshine: open minds and open eyes... [9: 43pm] starshine: ok [9: 43pm] MichaelGulitz: and lots of time [9: 44pm] PeterThoeny: in my blog post at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201203x1 i mentioned a reason for low participation by companies in the twiki community [9: 44pm] starshine: PeterThoeny:  I've had experience with setting up one nonprofit from scratch and helping out on a few others [9: 44pm] starshine: I have access to several different styles of bylaws and why they worked for them [9: 45pm] starshine: as minimum requirements, you need to describe governing structure, and what types of members exist [9: 45pm] PeterThoeny: first i'd like to state that i did a few mistakes as a community leader [9: 45pm] starshine: some orgs have only one type as far as the state is concerned. [9: 46pm] PeterThoeny: one was to introduce the ubuntu style governance model too quickly [9: 46pm] GeorgeTrubisky: explain [9: 46pm] PeterThoeny: which resulted in the departure of many contributors who disagreed [9: 46pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic [9: 46pm] starshine: have some returned? [9: 47pm]  himazu joined the chat room. [9: 47pm] PeterThoeny: it was my fault not to involve some key people while preparing the move to the new model [9: 47pm] starshine: do you agree, with some of the reasons they stated for leaving? [9: 47pm] starshine: .o{ did they state any, or just leave? [9: 47pm] starshine: wb himazu [9: 47pm] PeterThoeny: yes with some of the moderate voices [9: 47pm] PeterThoeny: not with the extreme ones [9: 47pm] •starshine latches himazu's chair to the wall [9: 48pm] starshine: ok [9: 48pm] starshine: an un-expressed org is a canvas [9: 48pm] PeterThoeny: the upside is that the new governance model is working [9: 48pm] PeterThoeny: if you take the quality of the releases as a metric [9: 48pm] starshine: just like an app, we paint in what concepts drive us first, THEN design function, THEN debug. [9: 49pm] starshine: debugging design is way easier than debugging already-wired features. [9: 49pm] starshine: so [9: 49pm] GeorgeTrubisky: we lack support from commercial companies, so foundation is a way to solve this, correct? [9: 50pm] starshine: nod [9: 50pm] PeterThoeny: yes, so back to improving the structure [9: 51pm] PeterThoeny: the actual release process is rock solid, and it is up to george to tweak it as he sees [9: 51pm] PeterThoeny: the ubuntu style gov model is partially working [9: 51pm] PeterThoeny: what is not working well is, we have no easy way for companies to get involved [9: 52pm] starshine: involved = ??? [9: 52pm] •starshine wants to hear peter's thought before babbling any of her own [9: 53pm] PeterThoeny: so the idea is if we either create a foundation, or join a foundation (apache?) we could define a process where companies can contribute cash to develop features they need, and/or commit to developers to contribute to enhance twiki to their needs [9: 53pm] PeterThoeny: eclipse can be a model for us [9: 53pm] starshine: hm. [9: 53pm] starshine: like source-exchange or odesk?  bounties on successful feature? [9: 54pm] starshine: how to keep them from spamming the planning-site with really weird features, or duplicates? [9: 55pm] PeterThoeny: so, to be more specific, right now we have an eco-system of:  community + 1 company + consultants [9: 55pm] starshine: ok [9: 55pm] PeterThoeny: we could morph this into:  community + many companies + consultants + isvs [9: 55pm] starshine: because of my experience, when I think company, I think small ones and big ones [9: 55pm] PeterThoeny: in order for this to work we need a legal entity [9: 55pm] PeterThoeny: hence the foundation idea [9: 56pm] MichaelGulitz: what is isvs? [9: 56pm] PeterThoeny: independent software vendors [9: 56pm] MichaelGulitz: ok [9: 56pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. companies that want to sell their software [9: 56pm] PeterThoeny: which in our case can be twiki apps that run on top of twiki [9: 56pm] PeterThoeny: app store idea [9: 57pm] PeterThoeny: well, this is down the road [9: 57pm] starshine: individuals/audience + individuals/docs+qa + individuals/devs + businesses of all size + consultants + "bounty hunters" ? [9: 57pm] PeterThoeny: we first should focus on making twiki.org attractive to individual contributors (dev, doc, qa, evangelists) and companies [9: 58pm] GeorgeTrubisky: what change do we have to deal with now?  Is twiki.net no longer supporting us? [9: 58pm] starshine: I think we should make wiki-champions and wiki-gardeners a respected and well described position [9: 58pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.net is support us for now [9: 59pm] starshine: like for instance the page where freenode describes people who are catalysts (tho they only describe the idea) [9: 59pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  good point on wiki-champions [9: 59pm] starshine: wiki-gardeners and wiki-champions are different styles of thinker [9: 59pm] starshine: a good growing wiki needs both [10: 00pm] GeorgeTrubisky: agreed [10: 00pm] PeterThoeny: there is actually something we can do for wiki-champions at companies: give them ammunition (docs etc) to show to their bosses why the champion role is so important [10: 00pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +60 min [10: 01pm] GeorgeTrubisky: a journey needs to take the first step.  What is the first step that makes sense for the foundation? [10: 01pm] PeterThoeny: anybody good to keep going for 15 more min? [10: 01pm] himazu: i need to leave now [10: 01pm] PeterThoeny: good discussions here [10: 01pm] starshine: I am good for it, but I have very short idea [10: 01pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I can stay [10: 01pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks himazu-san! [10: 01pm] himazu: will catch up by reading the log later. [10: 01pm] MichaelGulitz: i can stay too [10: 01pm] starshine: if we can come up with a "one page flyer" for it [10: 02pm] starshine: this would force us to reduce our info to what matters most to us [10: 02pm] starshine: we can "debug" it by each considering how anyone who already left twiki involvement would dislike or complain about it [10: 02pm] PeterThoeny: on the flyer, it would list the what we need? [10: 02pm] starshine: if we are ok with those complaints, then it's good [10: 03pm] starshine: it would list how we sell it to people who don't know twiki [10: 03pm] starshine: new businesses to lure to be involved [10: 03pm] starshine: like good products, ingredients go on the back at a small font [10: 04pm] PeterThoeny: starshine:  i like to idea of interviewing some people who left [10: 05pm] starshine: even if they stormed off in a huff, whatever made them mad, we can consider whether we find it valid [10: 05pm] GeorgeTrubisky: the wikiring folks? [10: 05pm] starshine: or like a good engineer, split it into smaller parts. [10: 06pm] PeterThoeny: i do not think it is fruitful to interview people who worked very consistently against the twiki project for many years [10: 07pm] PeterThoeny: just my opinion [10: 07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: agreed [10: 07pm] PeterThoeny: but i am open if someone wants to interview them [10: 07pm] starshine: we can just consider them as case-studies, not disturb their found peace elsewhere [10: 07pm] GeorgeTrubisky: but who then?  What people were you thinking about? [10: 08pm] PeterThoeny: i think it is more fruitful to interview people who just left silently or semi-silently [10: 08pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic [10: 08pm] starshine: I should specify for the record, that I have been fairly disinvolved from the wiki for 2 or 3 years, so none of the furor has any weight to me, I don't know what happened [10: 08pm] PeterThoeny: i think we will get a more honest and balanced view [10: 09pm] starshine: I am only expressing my view of how to step from a blank canvas to a painted one, but knowing that there is already an expectation of us - whatever it is. [10: 10pm] PeterThoeny: you could ready old comments on twiki.org to find suitable people to ask [10: 10pm] starshine: So I have a *different* fairly plain idea, and whichever traits show up in both types of consideration, are really us. [10: 10pm] PeterThoeny: i could also introduce you to some via e-mail [10: 10pm] starshine: if this new foundation were a person... [10: 11pm] PeterThoeny: elaborate? [10: 11pm] starshine: what kind of person is it, what traits, what social style, how does it meet one or two friends, how does it meet several? [10: 11pm] starshine: does it throw parties, pin medals on itself? or is it shy, hardworking? [10: 12pm] starshine: how do we want our Foundation to be seen, four years up the line from now? [10: 12pm] PeterThoeny: good point [10: 12pm] starshine: how does it get "paid"?  in egoboo? in paychecks? in handshakes from mayors? [10: 13pm] PeterThoeny: i'd approach it in phases [10: 13pm] PeterThoeny: 1. do research [10: 13pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, we need steps [10: 13pm] starshine: we plan the "teenager" or "adult" we want it to be, and then plan how to raise the child [10: 13pm] starshine: so that no steps to reach there are too big to make happen. [10: 13pm] PeterThoeny: 2. decide if to join a foundation or create one [10: 13pm] PeterThoeny: 3. join or incorporate [10: 13pm] starshine: When I created my SFI chapter in San Francisco [10: 14pm] starshine: we were already a group, and we wondered, do we join a Big Fan Club?  or just be our own? [10: 14pm] PeterThoeny: 4. define initial structure where companies and people can donate money; define structure how to use that money [10: 15pm] starshine: our members fussed over the kind of details I described above - both the flyer and the person model [10: 15pm] MichaelGulitz: This is all very interisting to me, but I must leave now... [10: 15pm] starshine: ok [10: 15pm] starshine: bye Michael [10: 15pm] MichaelGulitz: bye all [10: 15pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks for participating today MichaelGulitz! [10: 15pm] PeterThoeny: see you next time [10: 15pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I like the steps.  Focus on steps 1 and 2 [10: 15pm] starshine: we drew up very primitive one-line each bylaws, and decided they were close to a model that already exists. [10: 15pm]  MichaelGulitz left the chat room. (Quit:  Verlassend) [10: 16pm] PeterThoeny: let's use http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFoundation as our place to coordinate and discuss [10: 16pm] starshine: so, we were able to approve joining the larger org, not by gut-reaction, but by knowing it was intentional and a relatively good match. [10: 16pm] PeterThoeny: i think it is important we do that publicly [10: 16pm] starshine: nod. [10: 17pm] •GeorgeTrubisky yes [10: 17pm] PeterThoeny: at this point we have not enough data to see if join or create makes sense [10: 18pm] PeterThoeny: and then if we think join is better, the question is do we find one that is a good fit mutually [10: 18pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so research it is for me as a first step.  Updates to the topic suggested by peter [10: 18pm] starshine: ok. [10: 18pm] PeterThoeny: for example, apache has some rules and conditions, are we ok with them, do we meet them, respectively [10: 18pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so just a few quick questions on the joining option [10: 18pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that is the right thing [10: 19pm] GeorgeTrubisky: so what are we now? [10: 19pm] starshine: GeorgeTrubisky:  precisely yes! [10: 19pm] starshine: describe what we already are [10: 19pm] GeorgeTrubisky: not a legal entity [10: 19pm] starshine: first, as verbosely as possible, don't miss any trait we already have and appreciate [10: 20pm] starshine: as we have been burned before, we don't want to lose more people who may like what we have, right? [10: 20pm] PeterThoeny: now we are like we always have been:  a loosly organized group who has a passion to improve twiki so that it can change the workplace to be a better place [10: 20pm] GeorgeTrubisky: we have a strong leader with vision [10: 20pm]  Guest76592 joined the chat room. [10: 20pm] starshine: yes [10: 20pm] PeterThoeny: hi Guest76592:  are you che dong? [10: 21pm]  EnriqueCadalso joined the chat room. [10: 21pm] GeorgeTrubisky: we have some governance [10: 21pm]  EnriqueCadalso left the chat room. [10: 21pm] PeterThoeny: we are in the meeting for 80 min and are about to wrap up [10: 21pm] starshine: nod [10: 21pm] starshine: we have a wiki page picked to write in [10: 21pm] PeterThoeny: yes, we have a governance defined; not fleshed out in details [10: 21pm] starshine: this can continue there. [10: 22pm] GeorgeTrubisky: process around tracking features and bugs [10: 22pm] PeterThoeny: we do not have legal entity [10: 22pm] GeorgeTrubisky: a release process [10: 22pm] starshine: we should nail down which parts of it are present because they are ...structural, and required [10: 22pm] starshine: from which are tacked on, merely current implementation of a concept, and may later be done other ways. [10: 23pm] PeterThoeny: hmm, we briefly had enrique here from toronto [10: 23pm] GeorgeTrubisky: peter, so as far as the twiki.org site itself, that is owned by you? [10: 23pm] PeterThoeny: yes [10: 23pm] PeterThoeny: i own and pay for the domain [10: 24pm] PeterThoeny: i have clearly separated out the twiki inc stuff and the twiki.org stuff [10: 25pm] GeorgeTrubisky: yes, good.  And the TWiki name, that has nameplate value, something that a foundation would be interested in, yes? [10: 25pm] starshine: good [10: 25pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +85 min [10: 25pm] PeterThoeny: yes, i would presume that the foundation should take care of the name [10: 26pm] PeterThoeny: so far i am taking care for 14 years [10: 26pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok.  That enough of an answer for me for now [10: 26pm] starshine: ooh. idea [10: 27pm] GeorgeTrubisky: did you want to do some divide up the foundation research before we go?  You are doing Apache already? [10: 27pm]  Guest76592 left the chat room. (Ping timeout:  245 seconds) [10: 27pm] PeterThoeny: ok, i'll take as an action item to write some thoughts on foundation on our page [10: 27pm] PeterThoeny: i can take apache [10: 27pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I'll research others.  Suggestions? [10: 27pm] starshine: I'll pop in sometime this weekend (i'm at a convention) and describe sanitized versions of some org-structures I know [10: 27pm]  himazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout:  244 seconds) [10: 28pm] starshine: They will be specific entries, that I can cross-ref with pointers to real bylaws for the more deeply curious. [10: 28pm] PeterThoeny: just as a learning experience it would be good to study some other open source foundations, regardless if potential to join or not:  perl, eclipse [10: 29pm] PeterThoeny: once we decide and if we do for create, we can worry about bylaws [10: 29pm] starshine: to prevent overlap, the only one from the open source community I will cover is Sbay [10: 29pm] starshine: because I had direct involvement [10: 29pm] GeorgeTrubisky: I know a tiny bit about eclipse.  I'll start with them. [10: 29pm] PeterThoeny: ah, good [10: 29pm] starshine: just pick traits first [10: 29pm] starshine: leave deeper-bylaw stuff for a hotlink [10: 29pm] PeterThoeny: so starshine for sbay, GeorgeTrubisky for eclipse, peter for apache [10: 30pm] PeterThoeny: time check:  +90 min [10: 30pm] PeterThoeny: lets wrap up [10: 30pm] GeorgeTrubisky: know anything about free software foundation? [10: 30pm] GeorgeTrubisky: www.fsf.org [10: 30pm] starshine: I do, but I promised not to cross the wires [10: 30pm] PeterThoeny: i know a lawer who was going some work with them [10: 31pm] starshine: PeterThoeny:  do you have a timeframe for "release" of this idea? or do you merely want energy to keep rolling and not stop? [10: 31pm] PeterThoeny: i meant "lawyer" [10: 31pm] GeorgeTrubisky: kinda looks political at first glance [10: 31pm] starshine: if the latter, I propose no more than 1 wk per "target entity type" to research and describe a summary [10: 32pm] starshine: anything that can't be gotten that fast is too deep in the code [10: 32pm] PeterThoeny: fsf is kind of the extreme side on free software, they even reject the notion of open source [10: 32pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ic, well, scratch that [10: 32pm] PeterThoeny: i am more in the open source camp [10: 32pm] PeterThoeny: no timeline at this time [10: 32pm] starshine: ok [10: 32pm] GeorgeTrubisky: ok, I'll research eclipse [10: 33pm] PeterThoeny: just a kick-off to get things in motion [10: 33pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks all! [10: 33pm] PeterThoeny: was a good meeting! [10: 33pm] starshine: for my 2nd week I'll describe LASFS' model. [10: 33pm] starshine: good deal [10: 33pm] starshine: bye all! [10: 33pm] GeorgeTrubisky: thanks peter, thanks starshine [10: 33pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl [10: 33pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and update the minutes