Date: December 6, 2012 10:43:13 PM PST Subject: JerusalemMeetingLog2012x12x07.txt [9:01pm]  twiki-dallen is now known as DavidAllen. [9:01pm] DavidAllen: Hi Peter [9:01pm] MichaelGulitz: Hi everybody [9:02pm] PeterThoeny: hi DavidAllen, GeorgeTrubisky, HideyoImazu, MahiroAndo, MichaelGulitz, YaojunFei! [9:02pm] PeterThoeny: sorry for the delay [9:02pm] YaojunFei: Hi [9:02pm] PeterThoeny: just coming back from a japanese event in palo alto [9:03pm] PeterThoeny: good turnout today at  release meeting [9:03pm] GeorgeTrubisky:Hi Peter [9:04pm] HideyoImazu: ? [9:04pm] PeterThoeny: not everybody knows each other, may be good if each gives a one sentence self intro [9:05pm] HideyoImazu: i'm running TWiki in Morgan Stanley having 7000+ webs. [9:06pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san & team are also enhancing the open source twiki to scale to to very large deployments [9:06pm] MahiroAndo: I work with Imazu-san on twiki here in Tokyo. just joined the community a few months ago [9:06pm] GeorgeTrubisky:I'm the release management lead for TWiki [9:07pm] DavidAllen: I am Director, Product Management for TWiki, Inc.  Met Peter at Wind River ~ 10 yrs ago, and am looking to start a renewed marketing push for TWiki [9:07pm] PeterThoeny: [9:07pm] YaojunFei: Imazu San is my boss, I work on Twiki since this Jan. [9:07pm] HideyoImazu: ? [9:08pm] MichaelGulitz: I'm working at a consulting/software company in germany. TWiki is our central tool in the company and we are starting projects at customers where twiki is part of our solutions. [9:08pm] PeterThoeny: in other words, david used to run engineering of twiki inc in its early days [9:08pm] PeterThoeny: i am glad that david is looking into the marketing of the open source twiki [9:09pm] PeterThoeny: MichaelGulitz wrote a case study of his company aseaco [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: hideyo-san also wrote a nice case study of twiki at ms [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +10 min [9:10pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x12x07 [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: proposed agenda: [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Marketing [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Extensions [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: 5. Miscellaneous [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: shall we rearrange/add something? [9:11pm] PeterThoeny: today i recommend we focus on features and marketing [9:13pm] HideyoImazu: ? [9:13pm] PeterThoeny: what is the ? [9:14pm] HideyoImazu: sorry, my connection is not so stable. so I need to check if the connection is alive after some length of silence. [9:14pm] PeterThoeny: ok [9:14pm] PeterThoeny: ---++  1. Feature Requests for Jerusalem Release [9:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeatureProposals [9:15pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu-san & team, any feature you'd like to cover? [9:15pm] YaojunFei: ForciblyCacheRedirectCgi [9:15pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ForciblyCacheRedirectCgiQuery [9:15pm] PeterThoeny:  Feature Proposal: TWiki::Func::redirectCgiQuery and TWiki::redirect support $viaCache parameter. -- by YaojunFei [9:16pm] YaojunFei: This helps to give user a clean URL without exposing too much backend related data [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: oh, i missed this proposal [9:17pm] PeterThoeny: please always put the date of commitment [9:18pm] YaojunFei: Ok [9:18pm] PeterThoeny: i have no strong opinion on this feature [9:18pm] PeterThoeny: looks sensible [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: did you consider if there is a danager of xsrf issue? [9:19pm] HideyoImazu: looks good to me. [9:19pm] PeterThoeny: "danger of" [9:20pm] HideyoImazu: how may it cause cross-site request forgery? [9:20pm] YaojunFei: Not so much, but might be helpful [9:20pm] PeterThoeny: i don't know if there is, just a question, e.g. it should be investigated [9:21pm] PeterThoeny: twiki only allows content change via post, not get [9:21pm] HideyoImazu: sendemailplugin doesn't change content [9:21pm] HideyoImazu: it just sends an email [9:21pm] PeterThoeny: if the original was a post, and then changed to get, is there an xsrf issue? [9:22pm] HideyoImazu: and it accepts email sending by GET [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: yes, looks ok with sendmailplugin [9:22pm] HideyoImazu: the additional parameter's effect is the other way around [9:22pm] PeterThoeny: i am just wondering if we open up an xsrf issue or not [9:23pm] HideyoImazu: even if GET, it would redirect as if it were POST. [9:23pm] HideyoImazu: so it should be safer. [9:24pm] PeterThoeny: ok, good [9:24pm] PeterThoeny: btw, david is an expert in intrusion detection [9:25pm] PeterThoeny: who gives a +1 thumbs up for this feature? / a -1 for no / a 0 for abstain [9:26pm] HideyoImazu: +1 [9:26pm] GeorgeTrubisky:0 [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: this proposal was already proposed on 2012-11-20 [9:26pm] PeterThoeny: +1 [9:26pm] YaojunFei: +1 [9:26pm] MichaelGulitz: +1 [9:27pm] PeterThoeny: DavidAllen? [9:27pm] DavidAllen: 0 [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: technically the commit date was not there [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: but we have pretty much consensus here at the meeting [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: so accepted by release meeting [9:28pm] PeterThoeny: what other feature? [9:29pm] YaojunFei: Sorry, I'll keep in mind [9:29pm] HideyoImazu: TWikiFUncMultipleDiskSupport [9:29pm] HideyoImazu: TWikiFuncMultipleDiskSupport [9:29pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFuncMultipleDiskSupport [9:30pm] PeterThoeny:  Feature Proposal: TWiki::Func functions for multiple disk support -- by HideyoImazu-san [9:30pm] PeterThoeny: this is basically exposing existing core functionality to plugins [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: it's clean by design, so it looks good [9:31pm] HideyoImazu: that's right [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: i am just a bit concerned about complexity for plugin programmers [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: but then, if you don't need it you won't use it [9:31pm] PeterThoeny: e.g. ok [9:32pm] PeterThoeny: any feedback by others? [9:32pm] HideyoImazu: vast majority of plug-ins don't have to care about it. [9:32pm] HideyoImazu: I recently realized that the nightly clean-up script needs these functions exposed [9:33pm] PeterThoeny: let's get a feel if there is consensus, using same +1, 0, -1 [9:34pm] MichaelGulitz: 0 [9:34pm] HideyoImazu: I'll put that in the Example section. [9:34pm] YaojunFei: +1 [9:34pm] DavidAllen: +1 [9:34pm] MahiroAndo: +1 [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: +1 [9:34pm] HideyoImazu: +1 [9:34pm] GeorgeTrubisky:+1 [9:34pm] PeterThoeny: looks like an accepted by release meeting [9:35pm] PeterThoeny: what else? [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: i have one: [9:36pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/OpenExternalLinksInNewWindow [9:36pm] PeterThoeny:  Feature Proposal: Open External Links in New Window or Tab -- by PTh [9:37pm] PeterThoeny: small change, i already did in my dev env, including unit tests [9:38pm] HideyoImazu: looks good. [9:38pm] PeterThoeny: i could add an additional small related feature: show a small external link icon after the link of external links to have a visual clue that you are going off-site [9:38pm] MichaelGulitz: Looks like a good feature [9:38pm] HideyoImazu: actually we are doing a similar thing. [9:39pm] DavidAllen: I agree with showing a small external link icon, to cue user to the behavior (change) [9:39pm] HideyoImazu: with my local extension. [9:40pm] MahiroAndo: looks good to me too. icon is also a good idea [9:41pm] PeterThoeny: we already have the external icon,  %ICON{external}%, http://twiki.org/p/pub/TWiki05x01/TWikiDocGraphics/external.gif [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: can we get a handle if there is consensus on the external link opening up in new window, and also adding the icon (configurable in configure) [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: again using +1, 0, -1 [9:42pm] MichaelGulitz: +1 [9:42pm] GeorgeTrubisky:+1 [9:42pm] DavidAllen: +1 [9:42pm] YaojunFei: +1 [9:42pm] HideyoImazu: +1 [9:42pm] MahiroAndo: +1 [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: +1 [9:42pm] PeterThoeny: looks like consensus, thank you [9:43pm] PeterThoeny: any other feature proposal? [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: if not, lets continue [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: ---++  2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: i do not have any to discuss [9:44pm] PeterThoeny: GeorgeTrubisky, anything? [9:44pm] GeorgeTrubisky:nope [9:44pm]  tomc20923 joined the chat room. [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: hi tomc20923, welcome to the release meeting [9:45pm] PeterThoeny: we are at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/JerusalemReleaseMeeting2012x12x07 [9:45pm]  tomc20923 left the chat room. (Client Quit) [9:45pm]  tomc20922 joined the chat room. [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: currently at 2. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: so, then let's go to next item [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: tomc20922:  feel free to give a quick self into [9:46pm] PeterThoeny: GeorgeTrubisky is the release manager, [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu, MahiroAndo, YaojunFei work on open source twiki to make it scale to large deployments, from morgan stanley [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: MichaelGulitz is from germany using twiki at work [9:47pm]  tomc20922 left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: oh [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: ---++  3. Marketing [9:47pm] PeterThoeny: some context first on marketing [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: longer time ago we had weekly meetings on irc [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: alternating between release meetings and marketing meetings [9:48pm]  tomc20922 joined the chat room. [9:48pm] PeterThoeny: recently we have not done much on the marketing side besides the regular social media activities [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: it would be good to pick up on marketing [9:49pm] PeterThoeny: so that more new users and companies can be made aware of twiki [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: ultimate goal is to fuel the ecosystem: more users, more developers, more consultants, more plugins, better code, better usability... [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: let's brainstorm a bit on how we could pick up on marketing [9:50pm] PeterThoeny: open mike [9:51pm] HideyoImazu: floss weekly? [9:51pm] DavidAllen: Hi everyone, I'm happy to give some thoughts on this [9:51pm] PeterThoeny: please do [9:52pm] DavidAllen: I feel that, especially for _new_ users, it is very beneficial for them to quickly see what TWiki can do for them [9:52pm] HideyoImazu: XWiki was on it a while back [9:52pm] PeterThoeny: floss weekly is a good suggestion [9:53pm] DavidAllen: Most users will already know about standard wikis (like MediaWiki) can do, but will need to be shown [9:53pm] HideyoImazu: Randal Schwaltz is a Perl fan, so it should fit well to his taste. [9:53pm] PeterThoeny: yes, the question of what to present when users arrive on twiki.org [9:53pm] DavidAllen: why TWiki is the best wiki for their needs.  No other open source wiki can do (ad-hoc) applications, the way TWiki does, [9:54pm] PeterThoeny: another question: where do we spend efforts to get more people visit twiki.org [9:54pm] YaojunFei: From my view, I feel user experience of twiki is not so good, especially when I'm writing twiki variables to elaborate small web application. [9:54pm] DavidAllen: and applications like that can help business users: [9:54pm] DavidAllen:   1 Get organized [9:54pm] PeterThoeny: randal actually contributed a tiny part to twiki a long time ago [9:54pm] DavidAllen:   1 Improve workflow speed, performance, and efficacy [9:55pm] DavidAllen:   1 Establish / improve technology enhanced (business) processes [9:55pm] HideyoImazu: twiki.org feels a bit slow. can it be made faster? [9:55pm] PeterThoeny: YaojunFei:  yes, that is a usability question, very important for twiki product (a bit outside of marketing) [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: on twiki variables, i plan to make the variables wizard available in the twiki editors [9:56pm] PeterThoeny: so that should solve that usability issue [9:56pm] DavidAllen: However, this capability is not easily visible / usable to new users, especially non-programming people [9:56pm] DavidAllen:  and it is one of the most powerful features of TWiki [9:57pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu:  yes, any site should respond in 1 sec or less [9:57pm] HideyoImazu: after a user becomes familar with TWiki mark up, it's rather difficult to go to the next step. [9:57pm] DavidAllen: and a key product differentiation feature in the marketplace [9:58pm] DavidAllen: [Side note, for context: my experience is strongest around for-profit enterprises] [9:58pm] PeterThoeny: DavidAllen, yes, a way to define twiki as duality: enterprise wiki + web app platform [9:58pm] DavidAllen: [although this could apply to schools, interest / hobby groups, and other types of organizations that are not so much like for-profit businesses] [9:59pm] DavidAllen: [but would apply in a different way] [9:59pm] HideyoImazu: for enterprise use, the app platform capabilities such as %INCLUD{...}% is very handy. [9:59pm] PeterThoeny: the for-profit is an interesting point [10:00pm] DavidAllen: At TWiki, Inc. we literally ran the whole business on TWiki.  Would be nice if that were easy to do for other businesses, at least in part [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: connected to app installer ( http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiAppInstaller ) and later the marketplace [10:00pm] DavidAllen: To throw out some ideas [10:00pm] PeterThoeny: so i see a big future of twiki as an app platform once we have the infrastructure for isvs [10:00pm] DavidAllen:   1 A TWiki Application showcase [10:01pm] DavidAllen:   1 An easy way to distribute / deploy TWiki Applications, especially if it is easy for non-technical users [10:01pm] DavidAllen:   1 Possibly a contest to encourage participation [10:02pm] DavidAllen:   1 "Featured application of the week / month" or something similar to keep the content fresh [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: the first two points are exactly what the app installer and market place is about [10:02pm] DavidAllen: Peter: time check -- are we OK on time for this discussion? [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +62 min [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: how much longer shall we continue? [10:02pm] PeterThoeny: interesting conversation [10:03pm] DavidAllen: or should we consider moving this to a separate meeting (because the topic is broad) [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: of until +90 min? [10:03pm] PeterThoeny: "ok until ..." [10:03pm] MichaelGulitz: I'll have t o leave in a few minutes... but I think separate meetings on marketing and development is a good idea - this would also streamline each meeting and saves time for people who are primarily interested in only one aspect [10:04pm] GeorgeTrubisky:I agree with Michael [10:04pm] PeterThoeny: yes, if there is enough interest we could resume the alternating meetings again [10:04pm] MichaelGulitz: ok for me [10:05pm] DavidAllen: I would also be interested in resuming the alternating meetings again [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: who in this group is open for weekly meeting, alternating between release meeting and marketing meeting? [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: or, for marketing it could be a different schedule [10:05pm] PeterThoeny: such as first wed of the month [10:06pm] PeterThoeny: or could be also different media, such as skype [10:06pm] DavidAllen: Is there an easy way to find a time that would be best for likely and prospective attendees? [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: time also depends on who is interested [10:07pm] PeterThoeny: for example, if mainly people in usa and europe are interested it is better to shift the meeting by 12 hours [10:07pm] DavidAllen: I would welcome developer attendance / input [10:08pm] MichaelGulitz: I am interested in both but cannot contribute too much on development [10:08pm] tomc20922: The idea of a showcase is a nice one.  I have a ShowCase web on my to-be-deployed TWiki to encourage my users to try it out.  Many people come across websites via search engine searches.  Does TWiki's default configuration allows search engine robots to scan world readable content I wonder? [10:09pm] GeorgeTrubisky:suggest a 30 minute session immediately after this meeting (to start) [10:09pm] DavidAllen: It would be useful if the showcase is easily visible on twiki.org mainpage [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: imho this is where we need to put in efforts: we are in not too bad shape on presenting twiki on twiki.org for first time users, so not much needed there (unless someone feels like helping out), we have neglected connecting with other orgs, e.g. news sites, bloggers, analysts [10:09pm] GeorgeTrubisky:so twice a week, just after the release meeting [10:09pm] PeterThoeny: so there is best to focus initially imho [10:10pm] DavidAllen: adding a showcase would provide some news (like a press release) to announce and be a good starting point [10:10pm] PeterThoeny: tomc20922:  by default twiki does nothing to prevent search engines from indexing a public twiki site [10:11pm] DavidAllen: to get connected with news sites, bloggers, analysts, and, ultimately new users and developers [10:11pm] PeterThoeny: yes, questin is: how can we generate more buzz around twiki? [10:11pm] DavidAllen: would be a good idea to determine most favorable initial target markets [10:11pm] DavidAllen: before proceeding (too far along a specific path) [10:12pm] HideyoImazu: how about having Marketing web where people can put their ideas? and we will put various marketing related things there. [10:12pm] PeterThoeny: metrics are: monthly downloads, monthly user registrations on twiki.org [10:12pm] PeterThoeny: and number of support questions per month [10:13pm] DavidAllen: I found this page, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketing (updated 2010) but I _do_ like the idea of a web for this (at some point) [10:13pm] PeterThoeny: HideyoImazu:  i don't think we need a new web to discuss marketing [10:13pm] PeterThoeny: we have a marketing home in codev web [10:14pm] PeterThoeny: personally i like to keep the number of webs to a minimum [10:14pm] HideyoImazu: there are several aspects/areas in marketing. [10:14pm] HideyoImazu: can all of those housed on one topic? [10:14pm] PeterThoeny: once we have the app installer we need a new web for apps (package & app show case) [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: no, create multiple marketing topics [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: in codev web [10:15pm] DavidAllen: Hideyo: Perhaps it starts with a topic, and grows into a group of topics [10:15pm] HideyoImazu: ok [10:15pm] PeterThoeny: we have feature proposals, we could have marketing proposals and work items [10:16pm] HideyoImazu: maybe when we have many markting topics, we will have a marketing web. [10:16pm] GeorgeTrubisky: [10:16pm] PeterThoeny: DavidAllen:  you could own the TWikiMarketing topic and add links to new topics as needed [10:16pm] DavidAllen: PeterThoeny:  works for me [10:16pm] PeterThoeny: ok, if we have hundreds of marketing topics then it warrants a dedicated web [10:17pm] MichaelGulitz: I have leave now... please leave a hint in the minutes if you decide on new meeting schedules.  bye everybody [10:18pm] PeterThoeny: thanks MichaelGulitz! [10:18pm] DavidAllen: I will take the todo to dust off the TWikiMarketing topic [10:18pm] DavidAllen: Bye MichaelGulitz, thanks for participation [10:18pm] PeterThoeny: yes, lot's of old marketing stuff that can be removed/moved [10:18pm]  MichaelGulitz left the chat room. [10:18pm] GeorgeTrubisky:I have to drop also, good discussion.  Bye everyone [10:19pm] PeterThoeny: thanks GeorgeTrubisky! [10:19pm]  GeorgeTrubisky left the chat room. [10:19pm] PeterThoeny: on app show case, see [10:19pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiAppInstaller#Description_and_Documentation [10:20pm] PeterThoeny: i plan that twiki.org gets a new TWikiApps web that hosts the app packages, and also serves as a app show case web [10:20pm] PeterThoeny: back to marketing logistics [10:20pm] DavidAllen: PeterThoeny:  thoughts about scheduling another meeting? [10:21pm] PeterThoeny: when shall we meet, in what form? [10:21pm] DavidAllen: I am fine with IRC, maybe change channel name to #twiki_marketing or similar [10:21pm] PeterThoeny: i suggest to continue with release meeting as usual, and establish some marketing meeting/way to communicate [10:22pm] PeterThoeny: david, what do you suggest? [10:22pm] PeterThoeny: you can also think about and post later in the minutes [10:22pm] DavidAllen: I like the idea of separate meeting.  Depending on how peoples' time works, could be after the twiki_release meeting, but if doing a marketing meeting every other week [10:23pm] DavidAllen: (when there is not a twiki_release meeting) works for likely participants, it works for me [10:23pm] PeterThoeny: ah, so have weekly meeting like before, alternating between release and marketing? [10:24pm] DavidAllen: may need to check with others offline, and announce the meeting to larger group -- there may be other participants who would like to attend [10:24pm] PeterThoeny: ok, let's take this offline [10:24pm] PeterThoeny: any other ideas at this time on how to create marketing buzz? [10:25pm] DavidAllen: I feel like the marketing work would be a good vehicle to re-energize the TWikiAppInstaller feature, [10:25pm] PeterThoeny: yes [10:26pm] DavidAllen: and that feature would make for a great push to connect with blogs, news sites, etc. [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: xactly [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +86 min [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: lets close in a few min [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Extensions [10:26pm] PeterThoeny: i don't have anything special on extensions [10:27pm] PeterThoeny: anybody? [10:27pm] HideyoImazu: no [10:27pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 5. Miscellaneous [10:27pm] PeterThoeny: i have one: next major release [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: i think we should target spring 2013 [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: march, april timeframe [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, app installer and twiki for large sites should be ready [10:28pm] PeterThoeny: timing possible? [10:29pm] HideyoImazu: sounds good [10:29pm] DavidAllen: i like the idea, too [10:29pm] MahiroAndo: I think that's good too [10:29pm] PeterThoeny: we these two features are ready ahead of time we can release in feb [10:29pm] DavidAllen: [10:31pm] PeterThoeny: with these two major features is it ok to call this relase 6.0, e.g. not 5.2? [10:31pm] HideyoImazu: i don't have strong opinion [10:32pm] PeterThoeny: we have time to think about this [10:32pm] PeterThoeny: this is all i had [10:32pm] PeterThoeny: anything else? [10:33pm] HideyoImazu: no [10:33pm] DavidAllen: nothing more from me right now [10:33pm] YaojunFei: No [10:33pm] PeterThoeny: ok, thanks all! was a good meeting [10:33pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes [10:34pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl & b4n [10:34pm] HideyoImazu: thanks! [10:34pm] DavidAllen: thanks everyone [10:34pm] MahiroAndo: thanks peter, thanks everyone [10:34pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [10:34pm]  MahiroAndo left the chat room. [10:34pm] YaojunFei: Bye, everyone.