Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2016x01x07.txt
Date: January 7, 2016 4:29:15 PM PST
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: hi hidey-san
[3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter
[3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Happy new year
[3:00pm] HaraldJoerg joined the chat room.
[3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Harald
[3:00pm] HaraldJoerg: Good evening Hideyo-san!
[3:00pm] PeterThoeny: 明けましておめでとうございます!ことしもよろしくお願いします。
[3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HaraldJoerg! häppy new year!
[3:01pm] HaraldJoerg: Thanks! Happy 2016 to you all as well!
[3:02pm] PeterThoeny: what is new in the new year?
[3:03pm] HaraldJoerg: My Raspberry
[3:03pm] HideyoImazu: I started using MacID app -- with which you can unlock your Mac with Touch ID or Apple Watch
[3:04pm] PeterThoeny: looks exciting, both projects!
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: for a client i work on a node.js + express + mongoose + mongodb + jquery based app
[3:05pm] PeterThoeny: quite interesting project, and very effective
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: before new year i went backcountry skiing with a friend
[3:06pm] PeterThoeny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backcountry_skiing
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: also called alpine skiing
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: a lot of fun
[3:07pm] HaraldJoerg: We hardly have enough snow for that in recent years
[3:07pm] PeterThoeny: but boy i realized that i am out fo shape, i had to rest more often than i wanted to
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: california had some good rain and snow in the last few weeks, very much needed
[3:08pm] HideyoImazu: i've known backcountry skiing for a long while but i've never tried
[3:08pm] PeterThoeny: it's fun, but you have to know what you are doing
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: it can be dangerous due to avalanches
[3:09pm] PeterThoeny: we had avalanche beakon on us just in case
[3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: When I was 20 years younge I did some tours with a friend who was very familiar with some regions in
the alps, still have the equipment
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: i also dragged the same friend down a steep chute:
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153722012283950
[3:11pm] PeterThoeny: nice!
[3:12pm] PeterThoeny: if you have the equipment, go for it again!
[3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: My family refuses to get up early, which is a precondition for ski touring
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: yup
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +13 min
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: let's start
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2016x01x07
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous
[3:13pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebChanges
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFunclogFilePath - by HideyoImazu-san
[3:14pm] PeterThoeny: we should discuss this
[3:14pm] HideyoImazu: sure
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: i am reluctant to officially open up the file path name to the log because it will prevent us from
enhancing the log with file locking
[3:16pm] HideyoImazu: even with debug log?
[3:16pm] PeterThoeny: currently we have occational corruption in log/warning/debug files due to simultaneous updates
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: i am not too concerned with debug
[3:17pm] PeterThoeny: but why not simply read the localsite.cfg setting?
[3:18pm] HideyoImazu: as of now, ploticus.pl wrapper knows almost nothing about TWiki
[3:19pm] HaraldJoerg: A more technical question: What happens if the debug file name in LocalSite.cfg is given as a relative
path?
[3:19pm] HideyoImazu: having ploticus.pl read localsite.cfg, and have it understand the debug file path, which may contain
%DATE%, is a pain
[3:20pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, reading just one spec file is less overhead than instantiating twiki in ploticus.pl?
[3:20pm] HideyoImazu: when ploticus.pl is launched, the current directory is not changed.
[3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose there is no problem with relative path in localsite.cfg
[3:22pm] PeterThoeny: i am less concerned about opening up just the debug file path name, so we could add just that
[3:23pm] PeterThoeny: if you want to read localsite.cfg you can do via require 'setlib.cfg' in twiki/bin
[3:24pm] HideyoImazu: ploticus.pl reading just one spec file is more overhead than PloticusPlugin handing the debug file path
to a program.
[3:25pm] HideyoImazu: to ploticus.pl
[3:25pm] HaraldJoerg: Sorry, but I don't think setlib.cfg is a very good idea. I run TWikis without setlib.cfg by now
[3:25pm] PeterThoeny: the plugin could just pass that debug file path from $TWiki::cfg
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: to summarize, i am ok with adding the debug file path name to the api, just think it is a bit overkill
[3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: I think Hideyo-san wants the plugin to expand %DATE%, if present in the settung
[3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: settung->setting
[3:26pm] PeterThoeny: oic, yes
[3:27pm] HaraldJoerg: And I agree that for a debug logging, file locking should not be an issue
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: that's an argument for adding this to the api then
[3:27pm] HideyoImazu: so, just adding TWiki::Func::debugFilePath() is fine, right?
[3:27pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:28pm] HaraldJoerg: If it is added to the official API, I suggest that it provides the absolute path
[3:28pm] PeterThoeny: lesser issue if debug file is corrupted occationally due to race condition
[3:28pm] HaraldJoerg: Other external tools might change the current directory even if ploticus doesn't
[3:29pm] HideyoImazu: what do you mean by external tools?
[3:29pm] PeterThoeny: twiki likely already expands that to absolute path, but good to check
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: so +1 from me for debug file path
[3:31pm] HaraldJoerg: "External tools": Some plugins start other processes, these might or might not change the directory
[3:31pm] PeterThoeny: maybe better call it TWiki::Func::debugFilePathName() to indicate that it is not just the path to the
filename?
[3:32pm] HaraldJoerg: ...or document that it is the absolute path. If TWiki already does this during configure, all the better
[3:32pm] PeterThoeny: even plugins could do a change dir
[3:33pm] HideyoImazu: a plugin can chdir(). but it's bad for mod_perl and Fast CGI
[3:34pm] PeterThoeny: yup
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: anyway, what should debugFilePathName() do if the debug file path is relatieve?
[3:35pm] PeterThoeny: so this feature is accepted by today's release meeting for debug file path name
[3:35pm] HideyoImazu: put a warning?
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: or debug file path will be made absolute in initialization?
[3:36pm] PeterThoeny: rare case i think (if admin does not set locallib.cfg properly), but warning sounds good
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: outside TWiki::Func::debugFilePathName()?
[3:36pm] HideyoImazu: I understand your concern.
[3:36pm] HaraldJoerg: If the path is relative, it should just provide the absolute path name. I don't think a warning is
required (warning *whom*?)
[3:37pm] HideyoImazu: I'll figure out how best take care of the concern.
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good
[3:37pm] HaraldJoerg: BTW: I just checked my installations, one of them runs with relative paths just fine
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: next
[3:37pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg: yes, provided no plugin changes the directory
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiLevelComments - by rich morin
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: no committed developer and date set
[3:38pm] PeterThoeny: proposal sounds good
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: we seem to have consensus to introduce ...
[3:39pm] PeterThoeny: anybody interesed in implementing this?
[3:39pm] HideyoImazu: i'm interested but I cannot start working on it now
[3:40pm] HaraldJoerg: I am not too happy with introducing yet another XML-like element to the syntax
[3:40pm] PeterThoeny: ah
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: twiki has very few: literal, verbatim, sticky
[3:41pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, and all of them are a pain for TinyMCE
[3:41pm] PeterThoeny: i think that's it
[3:42pm] PeterThoeny: well, all we need to do for tinymce is to leave them as is
[3:43pm] HideyoImazu: Harald, is there a better way for TWiki level comment than ... ?
[3:44pm] HaraldJoerg: That raises the question how TinyMCE will display a element. It is not HTML, so probably
the tags will just be invisible. If I am not mistaken, when you edit the file, there's no chance to see what is ignored
and what isn't
[3:45pm] PeterThoeny: good question on what tinymce does with tags it does not understand
[3:45pm] HaraldJoerg: There are special precautions for verbatim and the like to wrap them into blocks
[3:46pm] PeterThoeny: back to question: shall we accept this feature now or wait until we have a committed developer?
[3:47pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm fine with that
[3:47pm] HideyoImazu: technically speaking, we need a committed developer for a proposal to be accepted, don't we?
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: based on our process
[3:47pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, that was an "or"
[3:47pm] PeterThoeny: so we can wait
[3:48pm] HideyoImazu: let's wait
[3:48pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[3:48pm] HaraldJoerg: I'll have a look at the code and add a remark to the proposal if I find something scary in TinyMCE
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiStoreWithMongoDB - by PTh
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: no committed developer and date
[3:49pm] PeterThoeny: i encourage you to read the proposal
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: i think this has the potential to make twiki dramatically faster
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: for example, a webchanges on twiki.org can be very slow
[3:50pm] PeterThoeny: if we use mongodb as a cache it can speed up things dramatically
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: i have now some experience in mongodb
[3:51pm] PeterThoeny: but can't commit to drive this at this time
[3:51pm] HaraldJoerg: For a cache, I am not sure whether MongoDB has any advantage over any other database
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: mongodb is also quite flexible in queries, for example it supports regex queries, not just %foo% like
in sql
[3:52pm] PeterThoeny: the reason to use a nosql over sql is two-fold:
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: 1. schema-less; allows us to cache arbitrary twiki forms with fast queries
[3:53pm] PeterThoeny: 2. regex queries, a must if we want to stay compatible with twiki querylanguage
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: there are more:
[3:54pm] PeterThoeny: 3. think in objects, not rows and columns; e.g easier to implement
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: because of object nature of twiki topics
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: that is all on features
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[3:55pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +55min
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions
[3:56pm] HaraldJoerg: Not a "feature", more a concern: I think that the unit test environment should be refreshed
[3:56pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges
[3:57pm] PeterThoeny: by refresh, you mean overhauld?
[3:57pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes. They are not "unit" tests if they require the full TWiki machine to run
[3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm still struggling to get the tests running on a) Windows without SVN checkout and b) Raspberry
[3:58pm] PeterThoeny: you also mentioned to align the tests with perl test infra
[3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, but that's more a "how" and not a "why"
[3:59pm] HaraldJoerg: We need to be able to run the complete suite like today in any case, only "simpler"
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good
[4:00pm] HaraldJoerg: Maybe I'll write my thoughts on Codev until next meeting. It's not related to Kampala anyway
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: needs a committed developer
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: back to extensions:
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PerlDocPlugin
[4:00pm] PeterThoeny: updated by HaraldJoerg - thank you!
[4:01pm] PeterThoeny: any comments?
[4:01pm] HaraldJoerg: That was just a 1-line-fix because the plugin itself had syntax it couldn't process
[4:02pm] HaraldJoerg: We still have the problem that TWiki inline docs doesn't comply to the POD spec, but the tools
(gendocs.pl) rely on that
[4:02pm] HaraldJoerg: The plugin is quite fine!
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: looks like we should fix gendocs.pl
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: you will see soon a new extension: a jquery plugin based plotting add-on
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: this is work i do for a client
[4:03pm] PeterThoeny: the js lib is http://www.flotcharts.org/
[4:05pm] HaraldJoerg: Looks nice
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: that is all on extensions i have
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: anything?
[4:06pm] HideyoImazu: no
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs
[4:06pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: TWikibug: Item7708: Copyright update to 2016
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: i'll work on that over the next few weeks
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have
[4:07pm] HaraldJoerg: For Item7623: I noted that the unit tests for Wysiwyg are pretty much broken
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: anything else?
[4:07pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: i have one item
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: anything from you guys?
[4:08pm] HideyoImazu: it would be great if the annual copyright update is automated
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that would be nice
[4:08pm] HaraldJoerg: I think we should know how to deal with Item7705 - TWiki fails on Windows
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: technically easy to automate for core
[4:08pm] PeterThoeny: but for extensions you need to package and release
[4:10pm] HaraldJoerg: Is it worth it to release plugins just because we have a new year? CPAN doesn't do that for its modules
[4:10pm] PeterThoeny: on TWikibug: Item7705, instead of testing for os version you could test directly if the cuntion exists
or not
[4:11pm] HaraldJoerg: In addition, %SERVERTIME% needs to be fixed
[4:12pm] HaraldJoerg: In 6.0.2, it always shows UTC
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh, s/cuntion/function/
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh, that is a problem with servertime
[4:12pm] PeterThoeny: bug filed?
[4:13pm] HaraldJoerg: Rather the other way around: %SERVERTIME% is a side effect of the issue causing TWikibug: Item7705
[4:13pm] PeterThoeny: ok
[4:14pm] HaraldJoerg: I wrote that in the bug's topic
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: good point on extensions, we cal just check in the new copyright year, and leave the version number as is
[4:14pm] PeterThoeny: "can"
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: one more thing:
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: i have the $15 download of the twiki-vm 6.0.2 ready for a good week now
[4:15pm] PeterThoeny: so for just one person paid
[4:16pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, the majority downloads the free 6.0.1 vm
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: does not look like enough to pay for the server
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have for now
[4:17pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +77min
[4:18pm] HideyoImazu: shall we wrap this up?
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: yes
[4:19pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes as usual
[4:19pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HaraldJoerg & HideyoImazu-san!
[4:19pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl
[4:19pm] HaraldJoerg: ttyl
[4:20pm] HaraldJoerg left the chat room.
[4:23pm] HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)