Subject: KampalaMeetingLog2016x01x07.txt Date: January 7, 2016 4:29:15 PM PST [3:00pm] PeterThoeny: hi hidey-san [3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Peter [3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Happy new year [3:00pm]  HaraldJoerg joined the chat room. [3:00pm] HideyoImazu: Hi Harald [3:00pm] HaraldJoerg: Good evening Hideyo-san! [3:00pm] PeterThoeny: 明けましておめでとうございます!ことしもよろしくお願いします。 [3:01pm] PeterThoeny: hi HaraldJoerg! häppy new year! [3:01pm] HaraldJoerg: Thanks!  Happy 2016 to you all as well! [3:02pm] PeterThoeny: what is new in the new year? [3:03pm] HaraldJoerg: My Raspberry [3:03pm] HideyoImazu: I started using MacID app -- with which you can unlock your Mac with Touch ID or Apple Watch [3:04pm] PeterThoeny: looks exciting, both projects! [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: for a client i work on a node.js + express + mongoose + mongodb + jquery based app [3:05pm] PeterThoeny: quite interesting project, and very effective [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: before new year i went backcountry skiing with a friend [3:06pm] PeterThoeny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backcountry_skiing [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: also called alpine skiing [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: a lot of fun [3:07pm] HaraldJoerg: We hardly have enough snow for that in recent years [3:07pm] PeterThoeny: but boy i realized that i am out fo shape, i had to rest more often than i wanted to [3:08pm] PeterThoeny: california had some good rain and snow in the last few weeks, very much needed [3:08pm] HideyoImazu: i've known backcountry skiing for a long while but i've never tried [3:08pm] PeterThoeny: it's fun, but you have to know what you are doing [3:09pm] PeterThoeny: it can be dangerous due to avalanches [3:09pm] PeterThoeny: we had avalanche beakon on us just in case [3:11pm] HaraldJoerg: When I was 20 years younge I did some tours with a friend who was very familiar with some regions in the alps, still have the equipment [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: i also dragged the same friend down a steep chute: [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153722012283950 [3:11pm] PeterThoeny: nice! [3:12pm] PeterThoeny: if you have the equipment, go for it again! [3:12pm] HaraldJoerg: My family refuses to get up early, which is a precondition for ski touring [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: yup [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +13 min [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: let's start [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KampalaReleaseMeeting2016x01x07 [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 2. Extensions [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: 4. Miscellaneous [3:13pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Feature Requests for Kampala Release [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebChanges [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFunclogFilePath - by HideyoImazu-san [3:14pm] PeterThoeny: we should discuss this [3:14pm] HideyoImazu: sure [3:16pm] PeterThoeny: i am reluctant to officially open up the file path name to the log because it will prevent us from enhancing the log with file locking [3:16pm] HideyoImazu: even with debug log? [3:16pm] PeterThoeny: currently we have occational corruption in log/warning/debug files due to simultaneous updates [3:17pm] PeterThoeny: i am not too concerned with debug [3:17pm] PeterThoeny: but why not simply read the localsite.cfg setting? [3:18pm] HideyoImazu: as of now, ploticus.pl wrapper knows almost nothing about TWiki [3:19pm] HaraldJoerg: A more technical question: What happens if the debug file name in LocalSite.cfg is given as a relative path? [3:19pm] HideyoImazu: having ploticus.pl read localsite.cfg, and have it understand the debug file path, which may contain %DATE%, is a pain [3:20pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, reading just one spec file is less overhead than instantiating twiki in ploticus.pl? [3:20pm] HideyoImazu: when ploticus.pl is launched, the current directory is not changed. [3:22pm] HideyoImazu: I suppose there is no problem with relative path in localsite.cfg [3:22pm] PeterThoeny: i am less concerned about opening up just the debug file path name, so we could add just that [3:23pm] PeterThoeny: if you want to read localsite.cfg you can do via require 'setlib.cfg' in twiki/bin [3:24pm] HideyoImazu: ploticus.pl reading just one spec file is more overhead than PloticusPlugin handing the debug file path to a program. [3:25pm] HideyoImazu: to ploticus.pl [3:25pm] HaraldJoerg: Sorry, but I don't think setlib.cfg is a very good idea.  I run TWikis without setlib.cfg by now [3:25pm] PeterThoeny: the plugin could just pass that debug file path from $TWiki::cfg [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: to summarize, i am ok with adding the debug file path name to the api, just think it is a bit overkill [3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: I think Hideyo-san wants the plugin to expand %DATE%, if present in the settung [3:26pm] HaraldJoerg: settung->setting [3:26pm] PeterThoeny: oic, yes [3:27pm] HaraldJoerg: And I agree that for a debug logging, file locking should not be an issue [3:27pm] PeterThoeny: that's an argument for adding this to the api then [3:27pm] HideyoImazu: so, just adding TWiki::Func::debugFilePath() is fine, right? [3:27pm] PeterThoeny: yes [3:28pm] HaraldJoerg: If it is added to the official API, I suggest that it provides the absolute path [3:28pm] PeterThoeny: lesser issue if debug file is corrupted occationally due to race condition [3:28pm] HaraldJoerg: Other external tools might change the current directory even if ploticus doesn't [3:29pm] HideyoImazu: what do you mean by external tools? [3:29pm] PeterThoeny: twiki likely already expands that to absolute path, but good to check [3:31pm] PeterThoeny: so +1 from me for debug file path [3:31pm] HaraldJoerg: "External tools": Some plugins start other processes, these might or might not change the directory [3:31pm] PeterThoeny: maybe better call it TWiki::Func::debugFilePathName() to indicate that it is not just the path to the filename? [3:32pm] HaraldJoerg: ...or document that it is the absolute path.  If TWiki already does this during configure, all the better [3:32pm] PeterThoeny: even plugins could do a change dir [3:33pm] HideyoImazu: a plugin can chdir(). but it's bad for mod_perl and Fast CGI [3:34pm] PeterThoeny: yup [3:35pm] HideyoImazu: anyway, what should debugFilePathName() do if the debug file path is relatieve? [3:35pm] PeterThoeny: so this feature is accepted by today's release meeting for debug file path name [3:35pm] HideyoImazu: put a warning? [3:36pm] HideyoImazu: or debug file path will be made absolute in initialization? [3:36pm] PeterThoeny: rare case i think (if admin does not set locallib.cfg properly), but warning sounds good [3:36pm] HideyoImazu: outside TWiki::Func::debugFilePathName()? [3:36pm] HideyoImazu: I understand your concern. [3:36pm] HaraldJoerg: If the path is relative, it should just provide the absolute path name.  I don't think a warning is required (warning *whom*?) [3:37pm] HideyoImazu: I'll figure out how best take care of the concern. [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good [3:37pm] HaraldJoerg: BTW: I just checked my installations, one of them runs with relative paths just fine [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: next [3:37pm] PeterThoeny: HaraldJoerg:  yes, provided no plugin changes the directory [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiLevelComments - by rich morin [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: no committed developer and date set [3:38pm] PeterThoeny: proposal sounds good [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: we seem to have consensus to introduce ... [3:39pm] PeterThoeny: anybody interesed in implementing this? [3:39pm] HideyoImazu: i'm interested but I cannot start working on it now [3:40pm] HaraldJoerg: I am not too happy with introducing yet another XML-like element to the syntax [3:40pm] PeterThoeny: ah [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: twiki has very few: literal, verbatim, sticky [3:41pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, and all of them are a pain for TinyMCE [3:41pm] PeterThoeny: i think that's it [3:42pm] PeterThoeny: well, all we need to do for tinymce is to leave them as is [3:43pm] HideyoImazu: Harald, is there a better way for TWiki level comment than ... ? [3:44pm] HaraldJoerg: That raises the question how TinyMCE will display a element.  It is not HTML, so probably the tags will just be invisible.  If I am not mistaken, when you edit the file, there's no chance to see what is ignored and what isn't [3:45pm] PeterThoeny: good question on what tinymce does with tags it does not understand [3:45pm] HaraldJoerg: There are special precautions for verbatim and the like to wrap them into blocks [3:46pm] PeterThoeny: back to question: shall we accept this feature now or wait until we have a committed developer? [3:47pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm fine with that [3:47pm] HideyoImazu: technically speaking, we need a committed developer for a proposal to be accepted, don't we? [3:47pm] PeterThoeny: yes [3:47pm] PeterThoeny: based on our process [3:47pm] HaraldJoerg: Ah, that was an "or" [3:47pm] PeterThoeny: so we can wait [3:48pm] HideyoImazu: let's wait [3:48pm] PeterThoeny: ok [3:48pm] HaraldJoerg: I'll have a look at the code and add a remark to the proposal if I find something scary in TinyMCE [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiStoreWithMongoDB - by PTh [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: no committed developer and date [3:49pm] PeterThoeny: i encourage you to read the proposal [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: i think this has the potential to make twiki dramatically faster [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: for example, a webchanges on twiki.org can be very slow [3:50pm] PeterThoeny: if we use mongodb as a cache it can speed up things dramatically [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: i have now some experience in mongodb [3:51pm] PeterThoeny: but can't commit to drive this at this time [3:51pm] HaraldJoerg: For a cache, I am not sure whether MongoDB has any advantage over any other database [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: mongodb is also quite flexible in queries, for example it supports regex queries, not just %foo% like in sql [3:52pm] PeterThoeny: the reason to use a nosql over sql is two-fold: [3:53pm] PeterThoeny: 1. schema-less; allows us to cache arbitrary twiki forms with fast queries [3:53pm] PeterThoeny: 2. regex queries, a must if we want to stay compatible with twiki querylanguage [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: there are more: [3:54pm] PeterThoeny: 3. think in objects, not rows and columns; e.g easier to implement [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: because of object nature of twiki topics [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: that is all on features [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: anything else? [3:55pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +55min [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Extensions [3:56pm] HaraldJoerg: Not a "feature", more a concern: I think that the unit test environment should be refreshed [3:56pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/WebChanges [3:57pm] PeterThoeny: by refresh, you mean overhauld? [3:57pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes.  They are not "unit" tests if they require the full TWiki machine to run [3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: I'm still struggling to get the tests running on a) Windows without SVN checkout and b) Raspberry [3:58pm] PeterThoeny: you also mentioned to align the tests with perl test infra [3:58pm] HaraldJoerg: Yes, but that's more a "how" and not a "why" [3:59pm] HaraldJoerg: We need to be able to run the complete suite like today in any case, only "simpler" [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good [4:00pm] HaraldJoerg: Maybe I'll write my thoughts on Codev until next meeting.  It's not related to Kampala anyway [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: needs a committed developer [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: sounds good [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: back to extensions: [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PerlDocPlugin [4:00pm] PeterThoeny: updated by HaraldJoerg - thank you! [4:01pm] PeterThoeny: any comments? [4:01pm] HaraldJoerg: That was just a 1-line-fix because the plugin itself had syntax it couldn't process [4:02pm] HaraldJoerg: We still have the problem that TWiki inline docs doesn't comply to the POD spec, but the tools (gendocs.pl) rely on that [4:02pm] HaraldJoerg: The plugin is quite fine! [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: looks like we should fix gendocs.pl [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: you will see soon a new extension: a jquery plugin based plotting add-on [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: this is work i do for a client [4:03pm] PeterThoeny: the js lib is http://www.flotcharts.org/ [4:05pm] HaraldJoerg: Looks nice [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: that is all on extensions i have [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: anything? [4:06pm] HideyoImazu: no [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Review Urgent and Not So Urgent Bugs [4:06pm] PeterThoeny: http://develop.twiki.org/~twiki/cgi-bin/view/Bugs/WebChanges [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: TWikibug: Item7708: Copyright update to 2016 [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: i'll work on that over the next few weeks [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have [4:07pm] HaraldJoerg: For Item7623: I noted that the unit tests for Wysiwyg are pretty much broken [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: anything else? [4:07pm] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. Miscellaneous [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: i have one item [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: anything from you guys? [4:08pm] HideyoImazu: it would be great if the annual copyright update is automated [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: yes, that would be nice [4:08pm] HaraldJoerg: I think we should know how to deal with Item7705 - TWiki fails on Windows [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: technically easy to automate for core [4:08pm] PeterThoeny: but for extensions you need to package and release [4:10pm] HaraldJoerg: Is it worth it to release plugins just because we have a new year?  CPAN doesn't do that for its modules [4:10pm] PeterThoeny: on TWikibug: Item7705, instead of testing for os version you could test directly if the cuntion exists or not [4:11pm] HaraldJoerg: In addition, %SERVERTIME% needs to be fixed [4:12pm] HaraldJoerg: In 6.0.2, it always shows UTC [4:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh, s/cuntion/function/ [4:12pm] PeterThoeny: oh, that is a problem with servertime [4:12pm] PeterThoeny: bug filed? [4:13pm] HaraldJoerg: Rather the other way around: %SERVERTIME% is a side effect of the issue causing TWikibug: Item7705 [4:13pm] PeterThoeny: ok [4:14pm] HaraldJoerg: I wrote that in the bug's topic [4:14pm] PeterThoeny: good point on extensions, we cal just check in the new copyright year, and leave the version number as is [4:14pm] PeterThoeny: "can" [4:15pm] PeterThoeny: one more thing: [4:15pm] PeterThoeny: i have the $15 download of the twiki-vm 6.0.2 ready for a good week now [4:15pm] PeterThoeny: so for just one person paid [4:16pm] PeterThoeny: meaning, the majority downloads the free 6.0.1 vm [4:17pm] PeterThoeny: does not look like enough to pay for the server [4:17pm] PeterThoeny: that is all i have for now [4:17pm] PeterThoeny: time check: +77min [4:18pm] HideyoImazu: shall we wrap this up? [4:19pm] PeterThoeny: yes [4:19pm] HaraldJoerg: Ok [4:19pm] PeterThoeny: i'll post the logs and minutes as usual [4:19pm] HideyoImazu: ttyl [4:19pm] PeterThoeny: thank you HaraldJoerg & HideyoImazu-san! [4:19pm] PeterThoeny: ttyl [4:19pm] HaraldJoerg: ttyl [4:20pm]  HaraldJoerg left the chat room. [4:23pm]  HideyoImazu left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)