TWiki Release 04x02x00 - Comments

In order to keep the download page well structured and readable I moved all comments to this page.

-- CarloSchulz - 08 Jul 2008

Discussion

Well done guys, thank you very much for the hard work done during several months. TWiki rocks and you guys too ! I was already using a beta version and will update ASAP ! Regards, Eric

-- EricCharikane - 23 Jan 2008

The Windows installer is sorely missing here. Hope to see it soon! I installed the beta 2 version with it - a pleasantly jaw dropping experience compared to the fun I had installing 4.1.1 the old way (Cygwin etc.). Can the installer be run on a system which already has Apache and/or ActivePerl installed on it for other applications?

-- DavidPatterson - 24 Jan 2008

I'll be making new versions of the installers soon - I have to get some other work wrapped up first.

Yes, you can install with existing installs of activePerl and apache, but only if you have not customised their install in any way (like changing directory locations, or port numbers)

-- SvenDowideit - 26 Jan 2008

I'm not a developer--merely a TWiki admin for a company that started using TWiki around a year ago. But I find it extremely strange to find a "sponsored-by TWiki.net" advert. on the page with the TWiki installers in the same edit round that removed the recognition of Wikiring for their contributions in having created virtually all of the TWiki installer applications. Is something going on here that I, as a TWiki Admin, should be concerned about?

-- DavidWolfe - 08 Jul 2008

we agreed that the main download page does not contain proprietary twiki distributions. this is the place for the standard open source twiki distribution - not for TWiki.net

-- Unknown editor - 08 Jul 2008

I agree. There should not be a fixed ad for whoever on this page.

-- MartinSeibert - 08 Jul 2008 -->

yep, very good question David. Why is this happening again? I thought we had some discussion about this already... I moved it to the other distros section.

On top of the page it was way too distracting...

-- CarloSchulz - 08 Jul 2008

David:

As a TWiki Admin you should find the changes to be positive. TWiki.org is supported by TWIKI.NET and the open source community but had the appearance of becoming quite fragmented in terms of branding. As described in TWikiLogos, it is important to use consistent branding for core TWiki. This is the reason for removing the logos in the "Additional Downloads" section.

As an aside, and in keeping with the spirit of the TWiki.org site; and since you asked if there was something you should be concerned about: Are you aware that the installers posted at the TWiki.org site are not yet available as open source? Sven promised to do this over 6 month ago. If you could request this of Sven, I'm sure many other members in the developer and end-user community would appreciate the fact that anyone in the community can maintain the installers.

There are many important and respected contributions made to TWiki by the WikiRing members and many others. We are working to expand the community of TWikiContributors.

David, Martin, Carlo:

Reason for adding the TWIKI.NET download box: TWIKI.NET is sponsoring twiki.org; the hosting cost alone is over $1000/month. TWIKI.NET simply needs more exposure "above the fold" to get more revenue, and with this, will be able to better support the community and the open source project.

-- PeterThoeny - 09 Jul 2008

I can't see how anyone would view as positive the deletion of recognition for work done by members of the community. I realize that some custom work done on TWiki (such as building installers for those among us who are not UNIX/Perl jockeys) is done on behalf of the paying customers of contributing developers. In fact, I and my company have paid for some of such work that will hopefully materialize here before long. Giving contributors recognition for the work they've contributed can only serve to encourage further work and contributions, from more developers, for the benefit and enjoyment of all.

If there's a branding issue, remove the logo. But don't delete the entire recognition. Maybe the downloads page looked slightly "fragmented in terms of branding." But at least it was evident that many individuals and organizations are responsible for TWiki. The complete removal of Sven's name and/or the Wikiring link, together with the simultaneous addition of the TWiki.net link and logo just seem wrong. Add to that the prominent placement and wording of the addition, along with the already existing text on the page and the page suddenly reads like TWiki.net is the sole sponsor of all of the downloadable, pre-configured installers for TWiki.

At the very least, I think a little refactoring on the topic's text is in order--to restore some idea that the installers have come from members of the TWiki community. I'd be happy to work on that, if invited. But, as an only-just-born member of the Community, I don't want to get in the middle of the delete it/reinstate it/move it/move it back battle that seems to be raging.

TWiki.net certainly has the right to expect some exposure for their contribution. Maybe something more subtle like, "Hosting for TWiki.org sponsored by TWiki.net. Click for information," would be more palatable to everyone. It could likely be placed on more pages without creating distrust.

I understand that much is being proposed--unrelated to this "downloads" topic--to try to encourage more and broader contribution to the TWiki project. When considering any employee, a company wants to know about the reasons they left their past jobs. It's likewise good for someone interviewing for a job to know something about employee turnover in their potential employer's company. It is a completely honorable desire to want to increase participation. But who wants to participate in a project on which the majority of the key participants in the past have become uninterested due to morale issues? No, the better way to increase participation is through setting small goals, reaching them, celebrating them together, encouraging and praising everyone involved for whatever roles they have played. Personally, I am grateful that Peter created TWiki and founded the TWiki project. And I am grateful to every person who has tweaked code, created new features, built installers, written documentation, proposed ideas for use, and even asked seemingly obvious or possibly stupid support questions. Without every one of them, I would not be using TWiki in my organization.

-- DavidWolfe - 09 Jul 2008

Peter: I do not have a problem with TWiki.net getting back exposure for contributions. But shouldn't there be complete transparency for the community? The way you introduced this change does not support trust in that "balance" of give and take. Now you simply "took" without any discussion.

I would suggest an adserver throughout all web pages on twiki.org. You could start with a very big share of adviews. All other community-members who are involved could also get free adviews. Especially WikiRing should be considered. Others should have to pay for exposure.

My biggest problem at the moment is this question: "If //SEIBERT/MEDIA supports TWiki development further in the future. Is it for Peter Thoeny and his TWiki.net - company or is it for the TWiki Community and the sake of it?" I do believe that "growing the community" can only be done with the latter.

Let me make myself clear again: I do want exposure and business for TWiki.net. But I also want legitimate actions by all community members.

-- MartinSeibert - 09 Jul 2008

Peter, do you think adding TWiki.net at the top of the page is consistent with the GuideLinesLinkingThirdPartyDistributions we agreed on January 2008? I don't think so. That's why I removed it yesterday. You added it again today. This is irritating. Stop doing things like this. It does not help getting comfortable with TWiki.net.

-- MichaelDaum - 09 Jul 2008

I did the same as Michael yesterday for exactly the same reasons and I do not unterstand why all these undiscussed and questionable changes to important "official" topics happen (same goes for TWikiMission). Just look at the feedback these actions have caused. Is this really worth it?

-- CarloSchulz - 09 Jul 2008

I have been using twiki for personal purposes for two years now. Recently, i have been made responsible for implementing a groupware solution in my workplace. I have been lurking on this site for some time now. For the first time i feel it is time to put into the discourse my voice.

Because i am worried by what i see here. Let me quote wikipedia:

"In modern usage, the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds and/or abuses an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly. Dictatorships are often characterized by some of the following traits: suspension of elections and of civil liberties; proclamation of a state of emergency; rule by decree; repression of political opponents without abiding by rule of law procedures; single-party state, cult of personality, etc."

I see many parallels between the quoted text above (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator) and the role PeterThoeny is assuming within this comunity. I see that comunity decisions are being overriden by this dictator, without 'effective restraint by a legislative assembly'; the comunity summit which i thought served as a democratic forum to make decisions is being ignored.

I see 'rule by decree': pages that are, looking at the edit history, a result of comunity discussion are being editted unilateraly by the dictator. 'Repression of political opponents'; i see a lot of badmouthing by PeterThoeny of comunity members that have been very active for this project. People who i have talked with on irc some time or another, who have helped me with my twiki problems, who have been building twiki and improving twiki for years. If you look further, the other characteristics of a dictator are more or less present in PeterThoeny's behaviour of late.

Frankly, it really worries me to see this going on. Now, this is not something new, i realize that too. Everyone can see in the edit history of many pages in this wiki that this conflict is a historical one. However, it seems the conflict has gotten a new edge in the last months.

I recognize this kind of behaviour, and can only see it head one way. To stay close to wikipedia, quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29: "In free software, forks often result from a schism over different goals or personality clashes.".

Now, this might very well be PeterThoeny's intention. I see one such fork already happened some time ago for this project, and it could be perceived as a great way to loose the 'political opponents' i mentioned before. If the fork fails, the political opponents are ridded off. However, to quote wikipedia again: "...there is a reputation penalty associated with forking.". This penalty is for both projects, the original one and the fork.

Having said that, there seems to be a 'strike' currently, where the comunitys workforce is refusing to budge to the dictatorship. Perhaps a fork, freeing the project from the problems that are holding it back, is needed. There are several examples in history where the fork flourished after being freed from the shackles of the originating project.

With this danger looming, i know i will forego twiki at my workplace, despite the positive experiences i have had with twiki personal for the last two years. So that is already a reputation penalty. Even when issues get resolved magically within weeks, the risk for me is simply to big. I want to keep my job, same as DavidWolfe above. I urge you, Peter, to embrace the comunity instead of treating them like trash as you are doing now. It seems very much like you want to take over the comunity with your company. That will not be a good outcome.

One example: you complain about hosting costs. On another topic it was proposed that you share that burden with the comunity. Instead of embracing, you, Peter, choose to antagonize the comunity by claiming your supremacy as ruler of the project and put a banner on the release page. Why? Why should you be the only one who can provide such big efforts? Is it so you can claim how indispensable you are? To regain that "extraordinary amount of personal power" mentiont in the wikipedia article? Is it really worth so much that you want to destroy the comunity over it?

I am glad to have gotten this of my chest. I am sure i forgot to say things that i want to say and perhaps i will write more on these pages on this subject. There probably is a silent majority watching all this infighting thinking what i am thinking, but not bothering to get involved. If so, i would ask them to speak up! Support this hard-working comunity, protect them from a hostile take-over by a dictatorship that will hinder the improvement of twiki!

-- JoostKattegat - 09 Jul 2008

Is there any chance for the interim-CEO of TWiki.NET speak out for the company in this regard?

-- KwangErnLiew - 09 Jul 2008

For those who didn't notice, the comment "registered today, Sock Puppet of KoenMartens" was put by PeterThoeny, which kind of reinforced what was being said. (btw, how did you know?).

I can say I agree with what JossKattergat said. Those same complains has been mentioned several time before on Codev, IRC and mail, but this is the first time everything was put on the same paragraph. (Thanks Joos... or Koen.. it doesn't really matter).

TWiki was actually "publicly" forked at least once before (and TWiki is, in all effect, a fork of JosWiki), by a person who had more or less these same opinions.

-- RafaelAlvarez - 09 Jul 2008

Dammit, now Peter forces me to reject his false allegations. Some people on IRC pointed out his 'sock-puppet' allegation. I responded on JoostKattegat. Peter, please leave me alone. I want to have nothing to do with your insanity anymore!

I wish I was Joost Kattegat though, he shows more restraint than I could ever show.

-- KoenMartens - 09 Jul 2008

When I wrote my comments yesterday, I had no idea that RevisitingDecisionNotToAllowLinkingToExternalTWikiDistros existed. Now that I have read it, I feel even more strongly about this. The page, as it existed prior to yesterday, already met the agreed-upon (by the whole of the TWiki community, including TWiki.net) guidelines. The page, as it now exists, looks exactly like the proposal that the community overwhelmingly regarded as inappropriate. Reading the topic shows that this discussion already took place--and fairly recently. A decision was made that all seemed to agree on. But now the reverse of the decision has been done single-handedly. This kind of action will not result in expanding the community of developers and broadening contributions.

-- DavidWolfe - 09 Jul 2008

I deleted the totally inappropriated things that happened on the homepage of JoostKattegat. Peter, what are you doing?

-- MichaelDaum - 10 Jul 2008

Please remove immediately my email adres from a public page in revision 3 on my home page here!! I don't want it in public because of the spambots.

-- JoostKattegat - 10 Jul 2008

I have hacked the ,v file so the email address is replaced by xxxxxxx

Joost will contact you in near future so we can clear how who you are and your relations to Koen.

-- KennethLavrsen - 10 Jul 2008

You do that. But I am uncomfortable with these gestapo-like investigations. I don't think there i have a relation with Koen, not that i know off.

-- JoostKattegat - 10 Jul 2008

I'm completely sorry for what happend. This is not a good community behaviour.

-- CarloSchulz - 11 Jul 2008

This is not a good BDFL behavior.

-- MichaelDaum - 11 Jul 2008

Things have heated up in this thread a lot. I would like to ask you all to stay calm and focused on future improvements. Do not flame! Please think of what you want to change and act so that Peter and others can agree and follow.

This is what the discussion is about.

-- MartinSeibert - 11 Jul 2008

Joost. This was not meant to be Gestapo from my side. But since Koen is a community member who's integrity has been questioned it is important to address the Peter's allegations.

Looking at the TWiki logs the probability that a community member who has shown great anger against Peter is followed up by a person that just registers and basically express the same views, with the same kind of language, and the same arguments, from the same IP subnet 194.109.141. I can understand that Peter thought that it was the same person. And so did I faced with the evidence. On the other hand I know that coincidences occur and I am a hardware engineer used to dig in data. It is important to me if

• I can trust my friend Koen
• If the opinions from Joost are an input from what I consider a customer (in the sense not developer).

So I decided to analyse the Apache logs also since they tell a lot more. I will not give out too many details in public - but the details I want to share are

• Joost always posted from the same subnet but IP addresses are dynamic
• Koen posts from different IP ranges. And 194.109.141. is one of them
• Joost can only be found using a IE v 6 on Windows. He never used Linux
• Koen has in all of June and July only appeared using Linux. He has more than one machine and more than one browser but it is always Firefox on Linux

Based on this I will say that it is more likely that Koen and Joost are NOT the same person. I shall be the first to apologize for my suspension but I hope at the end of the day Koen and Joost appreciate that I did what I could to get the truth surfaced. And based on this we can now re-read Joost's posting as a posting from a new community member.

-- KennethLavrsen - 11 Jul 2008

I was having dinner yesterday with a few friiends. They are not computer people, but a remark had a lot of relation to this. Someone said that people often get very angry when you critique them and they know you are right.

I think Peter mush make a choice for his involvement: be twiki.net or be twiki.org. There is to much of a conflict of interest for him to be doing both. If he chooses twiki.org, he must let others in twiki.net do the marketing and other controls here. If he chooses twiki.net, he should give the comunity all the room and not interfere.

Maybe the choice has already been made by Peter, it looks like he is purely representing twiki.net on here. That is of course fine, but not compatible with his hat of twiki-dictator. It appears that board room discussions are pushed to the comunity as not-discussable items. That is wrong. The open source project must be able to operate independent of twiki.net.

-- JoostKattegat - 11 Jul 2008

Kenneth, you and i added comments at the same time. I thank you for your trust. I had an email discussion with Andre in the past few days, and he suggested i emailed the below tekst to you. I can as well put it on this page for everyone to read. I hope that with this, my input can be read for its content. I dont see myself as a customer, i do not pay anything.

I also mentioned to Andre i should translate the text Koen wrote on livre.nl and put it on here or ask Koen if he can do so. I read it and agreed with it a lot. It is no coincidence that i became active when Koen was angry. A lot of people were angry, i read in the different topics. It was that anger, that showed me how bad this conflict is at this time, that motivated me.

Here is the part of the email:

---

I know Koen Martens by the way, but that is only logical. The free software world in my country is a small world, and i have seen Koen give talks from time to time. The last time must be about a year ago now, it was about free software and politiks. That was at software freedom day with the dutch linux users group, which is each year in september, but you maybe know that already. Koen seems to be a active free software guy, i think he is also a politicus of some kind. And as i said it is a small world. I dont think we really met by the way. I do remember another talk by him on a dutch linux user group meeting, it was about google and i very much agreed with his critical remarks.

I also read an article he wrote on a free software news and background magazine site, livre.nl. It was about twiki and the situation. I think it was a very good article. It must be translated into english and put on the twiki site i think. Maybe i will do that. I dont know if you understand dutch (you are from germany i see, so there is a chance), i used some of his points in my writing on the twiki site. livre.nl always has good articles that give insight into free software in .nl.

-- JoostKattegat - 11 Jul 2008

I agree with Joost's assessment that it is no coincidence that some of us became active here when others seemed to be angry. I have happily and silently watched these conversations in the hope to learn more about TWiki and how I can use it in my company, and to just keep up with what's going on with development--including some current bugs I have a particular interest in seeing fixed. I have never had any reason to feel I should speak up about issues about and between developers. I read the IRC logs from the release meeting and was excited by the conversation I saw there, and thought that some of the things being proposed were very positive. But when I saw the action which prompted my first post to this topic, I thought that, if I have interest in TWiki as an ongoing platform in my company, I must speak up and ask, "What's going on here?" What developed afterward and related topics I've read since have only heightened my concern. I have complete confidence that the developers and contributors to the TWiki project will be able to work things out, and that TWiki will continue to grow and gain more exciting uses for us all. I encourage everyone to keep calm heads and keep up the great work you've all been doing. I'm not a programmer, but am happy to help out in any way that I can.

Kenneth-It may or may not be worth noting too, that unless entries were cut, the logs originally posted indicate that 3 days passed between Koen's last (06 Jul 2008 - 23:59) and Joost's first (09 Jul 2008 - 01:47) activities.

-- DavidWolfe - 11 Jul 2008

Joost - the explanation that you read his article - suddenly explains why you have facts in your statement above that only "old timers" know like the fork attempt from years ago.

Joost and David. TWiki will not die. I have personally too many both personal (time and energy spent) and business (TWiki is an important part of my professionel success as a project manager at work) to just give up. And I know we are many in my situation.

David - the log thing is cut. It did look very suspicious in the TWiki log (not the Apache log). But then it is good we have Apache logs and people that are determined to get to the bottom and bring the truth to the surface

-- KennethLavrsen - 11 Jul 2008

-- DavidWolfe - 11 Jul 2008

No one has spoken for keeping up the ad. I am still for ads for TWiki.net and maybe also for other who contribute a lot.

Peter: Please erase the current ad and let us work out a good solution to give you the exposure TWiki.net deserves. I do not doubt, that anybody will be against giving back something for your hard work: neither WikiRing nor anybody else.

It would be a good sign, to erase the ad for now.

(As MichaelDaum already pointed out, it will not have the best effect anyway, as it advertises for a former release version.)

-- MartinSeibert - 12 Jul 2008

I would like to apologize to Joost and Koen for the sock puppet allegation. I trust the analysis of Kenneth who came to the conclusion that Joost and Koen are indeed two different persons. Prior to that, when I looked at the TWiki logs, observing the IP addresses and the browsing pattern, I was pretty confident that it was a sock puppet, hence my statement in JoostKattegat's home page that "the IP address and log suggest that this is a sock puppet". My bad for jumping the gun with this assumed déjà vu experience (which happened 5 years ago). I am sorry!

I will address the sponsored ad question shortly.

-- PeterThoeny - 13 Jul 2008

It seems odd that TWIKI.ET feel that they should be allowed to advertise their non-free product on the open source project page, while I am not allowed to be given credit for the installer work that I have done. I have restored my credits, currently without our logo - Though I have to point out that the only reason I did it was to highlight the oddness of having 4.1.2 advertising on the 4.2.0 release page - something I thought we as a community had decided NOT to allow.

-- SvenDowideit - 13 Jul 2008

Sven I had not noticed that the logos had been removed from the installer links. Those logos were exactly per the guideline. Now I am even more angry.

Sven did you make the sources to the installers available? If not you should correct that immediately. Otherwise those links should not be there at all. Please put some priority on getting this done. I know you want to share those remaining sources. Please get it done so that does not become an excuse for not following other guidelines.

-- KennethLavrsen - 13 Jul 2008

I agree with Kenneth. I would be glad if we would not let a situation occur, where one misleading behaviour is the excus for other violations. Is it a big problem or a financial disadvantage to "open source" the installer? At least it would be a good sign, wouldn't it?

-- MartinSeibert - 13 Jul 2008

the source for the installers has simply not been uploaded due to my lack of time (ok, and lack of motivational feelings too). So its a financial consideration only due to my focusing on trying to reduce an ever increasing mortgage.

-- SvenDowideit - 14 Jul 2008

Sven: Can you say, until when it is possible for you to finish that. It seems to be important for Peter and others. I agree, it is not more important than financing a mortgage. But maybe you can simply state a new date and stick to it. Might be a long time goal also.

-- MartinSeibert - 14 Jul 2008

Are you seriously asking me to put a timeline on a situation that is specifically due to my not having any spare time? Because if you are, I think you need to reconsider your question. I've already had to miss the freeze date to get 4.2 into the next debian release! let alone the fact that I've only fixed ~50 bugs for 4.2.1 due to my lack of time - there are still more important bugs (there are IF and Query Search issues that I found that need addressing).

Thank god i'm on holidays still.

-- SvenDowideit - 15 Jul 2008

I am just back from a short holiday and what a lot of reading i now have to do!

Peter, i accept your apologies. But it is a very bad first impression you have made on me. If you want to be the leader you say you are, you must not let the past guide your actions but think each time before you do something so damaging. You have a lot of hard work to do to gain my respect after this.

Kenneth and Martin, why are you leading attention away from the real discussion with the push for open sourcing the installers? Also, I have looked at that download page again, and i wonder why there are links for 4.1.2 downloads on a 4.2 download page? I dont think that is logic. It confuses me.

I will now start reading all the other pages. It is not good that discussion is so divided over all these small topics. I think it confuses everyone who is not part of the inner circle. It is not transparent.

-- JoostKattegat - 23 Jul 2008

Joost - because GPL is important.

Joost - My original proposal did not allow links to older versions but the release meeting/Summit Q1 2008 asked for this to be changed. Only I wanted the more strict rule. So we have to respect the democratic decision.

-- KennethLavrsen - 24 Jul 2008