[13:07] *** PetreThoeny_ has joined #twiki_marketing. [13:07] *** #twiki_marketing: PetreThoeny_ Kobby Lavr PeterThoeny Sven_Dowideit gmc [13:07] *** carlo_ has joined #twiki_marketing. [13:08] carlo_: good evening/morning everybody [13:08] Lavr: Hi Carlo [13:08] Kobby: Hello Carlo! :) [13:08] PeterThoeny: hi carlo, koen, michael, kenneth, sven (here?) [13:09] PeterThoeny: sorry for the delay, just off the phone with a client [13:09] Kobby: Shall we make a start? [13:09] PeterThoeny: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2007x12x10 [13:10] PeterThoeny: yes [13:10] carlo_: I don't have much time today. I've got a curry on the plate and guests approachin... [13:10] PeterThoeny: who is taking minutes, who is facilitating? [13:10] PeterThoeny: oh, then lets do carlo's part first [13:10] PeterThoeny: you can't neglect guests :-) [13:11] PeterThoeny: i can facilitate if you wish [13:11] PeterThoeny: rod is not here today [13:11] PeterThoeny: who is taking notes? [13:12] Lavr: I will not at marketing meetings because I am not paying attention all the time. [13:12] Kobby: Hmmn - OK I'll take some notes [13:12] PeterThoeny: thanks michael [13:12] PeterThoeny: lets jump right into: [13:12] PeterThoeny: ---++ 6. Usability [13:13] carlo_: well, actually not much happend since last time. [13:13] gmc: (hi all sorry to be late lost track of time!) [13:13] carlo_: no comments from you guys not much work from my side .-( [13:13] PeterThoeny: yea, last comment on NewNavigationModellForTWikiOrg was end of oct [13:14] carlo_: I worked a bit one WebPageAudienceSiteStructure just before the last meeting [13:14] carlo_: will continue this week [13:14] carlo_: I think arthur is busy doing stuff for 4.2 [13:15] PeterThoeny: what topics are you most interested in getting feedback? [13:15] PeterThoeny: so that we can focus [13:15] carlo_: WebPageAudienceSiteStructure once I finiseh adding the personas to each section [13:15] carlo_: to see if we addressed everything [13:16] carlo_: and then... the Navigation modell [13:16] PeterThoeny: ok [13:17] carlo_: many other usability related stuff is more aimed at a twiki 5.0 release [13:17] PeterThoeny: yes [13:17] carlo_: too much for now as 4.2 is approachin [13:17] PeterThoeny: the history page for example, and permission settings, etc [13:18] * gmc just did a role based permission plugin [13:18] PeterThoeny: we can do many usability enh post 4.2 [13:18] gmc: actually i'm going to check in some hooks so that permissions can be extended by plugins into MAIN soon [13:18] carlo_: the question is do we need to capture usability issues seperatly or just using bugs? [13:19] PeterThoeny: i think small items can be just tracked in bugs [13:19] carlo_: but what about the greater issues? [13:19] PeterThoeny: other stuff should be tracked as a feature in codev, and have one (or more) bugs items [13:19] PeterThoeny: attached to it [13:19] carlo_: feature prposals? [13:19] PeterThoeny: yes [13:19] PeterThoeny: this is for changes in the twiki distribution [13:20] Kobby: Carlo, would your preference be for a separate Usability tracker application? [13:20] PeterThoeny: for twiki.org we can track that also in codev [13:20] Lavr: Yes. Anything which affects the way TWiki behaves should be added as http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiFeature04x02 [13:20] carlo_: so all bigger issues are delayed till 4.2 is out [13:20] Lavr: Which is also the process for 5.0 (GeorgetownRelease) [13:21] Lavr: All that is not strict bug fixes are for post 4.2.0 [13:21] carlo_: fine. that's it basically from my part [13:21] PeterThoeny: when you post a feature request you can set it as "usability" (it's already tehre) [13:21] carlo_: will do so :-) [13:21] Lavr: We are maybe 1 week from release now so we do not want to goof anything up now. Not even the smallest enhancements. [13:22] carlo_: sure [13:22] PeterThoeny: calro, what you might want to do is create a custom report that shows all feature requests on usability [13:22] carlo_: guests are there curry is ready [13:22] Kobby: Lavr, when do you think 4.2 will actually be released? [13:22] carlo_: yep [13:22] carlo_: that makes sense [13:22] PeterThoeny: ok carlo, please enjoy your party! :-) [13:22] Lavr: Unless we discover a new major bug there is still at least 50% chance we release before xmas. [13:22] carlo_: thanks [13:22] PeterThoeny: we do not want to hold you back [13:22] carlo_: have fun guys [13:22] PeterThoeny: thanks for your help! [13:23] Lavr: The RC2 that Sven built looks very good. [13:23] carlo_: bye [13:23] *** carlo_ has left #twiki_marketing. [13:23] PeterThoeny: ok, let's quickly talk about release schedule [13:23] PeterThoeny: (offtopic) [13:23] gmc: yikes, 1 week [13:23] Kobby: I'm not sure if this is off topic - the timing of the release has got implications for marketing [13:23] PeterThoeny: if in one week we have to do a lot of work on marketing in a short time [13:24] PeterThoeny: i was already looking at beginning of jan [13:24] gmc: you've then basically got one week to do any marketing, because week after that = xmas [13:24] Lavr: A week ago I was also less optimistic but Sven, Arthur and Crawford has done a huge effort and now it looks very good. [13:25] Kobby: Would it be possible to make 4.2 available and then have a press release a few weeks after the event? [13:25] Kobby: I don't really think so... [13:25] PeterThoeny: week of 12/24 is out due to xmas [13:26] PeterThoeny: meaning if we release it should be in the _beginning_ week 12-17 [13:26] PeterThoeny: meaning we'd need to have all marketing material ready by this thu so that we can alert the press ahead of time [13:26] PeterThoeny: not really realistic [13:26] Kobby: Peter, I agree [13:27] PeterThoeny: what is the pressure to release it before xmas? [13:27] Kobby: What does everyone think about making 4.2 available for download and then having a press release after the event? A sort of "soft launch" [13:28] Lavr: For the developers - to finally release - and this year. It has been hard work. [13:28] PeterThoeny: yes [13:28] Lavr: For me - to release - before anyone does some "safe" refactoring [13:28] PeterThoeny: for developers if we release in first week of jan it means also to have a good start with a new twiki release [13:29] PeterThoeny: how about promoting rc3 (next week) as "ready for production" (but still label as rc) ? [13:30] PeterThoeny: that allows us o do some last tweaks [13:30] PeterThoeny: and we will have a very stable production release [13:30] Lavr: Experience tells us that a X.X.0 always have new bugs surfacing and that a 4.2.1 will come within 30 days. So a soft approach may also buy time if the 4.2.0 turns our very bad. [13:30] Kobby: OK, soft launch is OK in my book [13:30] Kobby: What does everyone else think - it is a bit quiet on this IRC channel! [13:31] PeterThoeny: i see it simply as a question on how to label the release: dec: 4.2.0 vs. rc3 ("ready for production use") jan: 4.2.1 vs. 4.0 (very stable production release) [13:32] PeterThoeny: i am for high quality [13:32] PeterThoeny: i'd rather go for the right side of the vs. [13:32] gmc: if i had any say in it, i'd do a rc3 before xmas.. [13:32] gmc: followed by the real thing first thing 2008 [13:32] gmc: a 'soft release' doesn't appeal to me.. [13:32] gmc: but i think the call is not mine or ours to make, but mainly sven, cdot, arthur & lavr's! [13:32] gmc: they've been pulling in the hours for this release [13:33] PeterThoeny: a few years back a soft release would have been ok; nowadays bloggers drive the news [13:33] Kobby: That's true but we can be creative in how we label it [13:33] PeterThoeny: we can't ask bloggers to hold back because of a soft release [13:34] Kobby: So maybe what the Marketing Meeting has to do is to make a request of the Release Team - in the interests of being able to generate a marketing splash when we do decide to launch? [13:34] Kobby: What do others think? [13:35] gmc: seems reasonable.. [13:35] gmc: i mean, worst case, sven wakes up next monday and the sun is shining and he thinks 'hey what the heck todays the day' :) [13:35] gmc: and we have a release [13:36] Kobby: And that would be great, don't get me wrong, but we need to make sure we get marketing splash AS WELL as a great new TWiki release [13:36] PeterThoeny: i know, it can be hard to hold back on release date, especially if you work so hard on the release [13:36] Lavr: No matter if it is release on December 17 or release on January 2nd - I assume you will busy in XMAS so you'd better get the preparations started [13:36] PeterThoeny: yes, we need to make twiki more known in the mainstream [13:36] PeterThoeny: bloggers and press can help [13:36] PeterThoeny: and it needs to be coordinated [13:37] PeterThoeny: agreed on preparation [13:37] Kobby: Guys, we've been discussing this for over 10 minutes now - please can we agree a course of action?! [13:38] Kobby: I have to talk to cdot tomorrow - I could raise it with him then [13:38] PeterThoeny: ok, as kobby suggests, the marketing team is proposing to the release team that we label the next week's release as "ready for production rc3" [13:38] Kobby: Could other people do the same for others in the rlease team? [13:39] gmc: sure thing [13:39] Lavr: Yes. I would like to hear what the other developers like Sven, and Crawford and Arthur thinks. [13:39] PeterThoeny: btw thanks sven for creating rc2! [13:39] Lavr: I am not religious about it [13:39] gmc: perhaps a ping on the mailing list? [13:40] PeterThoeny: ok, let me send a proposal to the twiki-dev [13:40] PeterThoeny: let's continue [13:40] PeterThoeny: ---++ 1. Blogging [13:40] PeterThoeny: koen? [13:40] gmc: well, i'm sorry to report that there is not much to report... i've been far too busy on the $dayjob [13:41] gmc: which i've been neglecting in favour of lots of volunterr things, and now i have no money left :) [13:41] PeterThoeny: i know what you mean! :-) [13:41] Kobby: Can I ask a stupid question - If someone wanted to blog something, where do they find the instructions on how to submit a blog article? [13:41] PeterThoeny: one small detail: the-topic-name-tends-to-get-very-long-in-the-blog-posts [13:41] gmc: good news is, 22nd i'll be done with two major projects and taking a 3 week holiday in which i have lots of time to get things on the reails again [13:41] PeterThoeny: can we shorten it? [13:42] gmc: probably [13:42] gmc: i'll have a look at that too [13:42] gmc: Kobby: there is not much in ways of instruction.. [13:42] Kobby: :( [13:42] PeterThoeny: long urls tend to break apart when sending by e-mail, especially with outluck [13:43] PeterThoeny: there are no instructions, but do we need some? [13:43] gmc: there's a 'write post' button in the left bar.. [13:43] PeterThoeny: it is simply a matter of clicking on the "write post" link [13:43] Kobby: So there is! Thanks. [13:43] gmc: the rest is basically self-explanatory / like editting a twiki page [13:43] PeterThoeny: yes [13:43] gmc: one note is that you need to be in the community group.. [13:44] PeterThoeny: may be move the "write post" to the top of the sidebar? [13:44] Kobby: Who is in the community group? [13:44] PeterThoeny: anybod active in the community :-) [13:44] PeterThoeny: i frequently add new folks [13:44] gmc: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/TWikiCommunityGroup [13:44] Kobby: Peter, please could you add me if I'm not already in there? [13:44] PeterThoeny: oh, certainly [13:45] PeterThoeny: i missed you :-/ [13:45] Kobby: Thanks Peter [13:45] PeterThoeny: next: [13:45] PeterThoeny: ---++ 2. Home Page Redesign [13:45] PeterThoeny: arthur is not here today/tonight [13:45] PeterThoeny: any update from anybody? [13:46] PeterThoeny: Kobby: i added you to the group, please read the notes at the top of the group topic [13:47] PeterThoeny: if no update lets move to the next [13:47] Kobby: OK thanks [13:47] PeterThoeny: ---++ 3. Testimonials [13:48] PeterThoeny: rod is not here today (he is on a non-twiki related trip for a few days) [13:49] PeterThoeny: twiki.net will help coordinate the youtube contest [13:49] gmc: cool [13:49] PeterThoeny: let's get back later on this [13:50] PeterThoeny: ---++ 4. TWiki.org Performance [13:50] PeterThoeny: good news here [13:50] PeterThoeny: finally something rolling [13:50] Kobby: Hooray! :) [13:50] Kobby: What's rolling? [13:50] PeterThoeny: we will get a sun x4500 storage server from sun as a loaner, cost is $35k [13:50] gmc: yay! [13:51] Kobby: Yay! Indeed! [13:51] PeterThoeny: no cost for the community [13:51] gmc: sun++ [13:51] PeterThoeny: i have to figure out though what happens with the tax [13:51] PeterThoeny: i will try to handle this within twiki.net so that there is no cost for the community [13:52] PeterThoeny: we will also get two t2000 servers [13:52] PeterThoeny: just got the email today to sign the second shippment [13:52] Kobby: This is excellent news! When do you think we'll have the kit? [13:52] PeterThoeny: so somewhere around xmas we should have the hardware [13:52] gmc: very exciting [13:52] PeterThoeny: we will host it in the datacenter of plug and play tech center [13:53] PeterThoeny: where twiki.net is located [13:53] PeterThoeny: the pnp center is owned by one of the twiki.net investors [13:53] gmc: that hopefully solves Lavr's routing problems :) [13:53] PeterThoeny: hosting is jointly sponsored by twiki.net and pnp [13:53] PeterThoeny: yes, very exciting stuff [13:54] Lavr: I have not had routing problems the past week. Maybe they fixed it in silence. [13:54] PeterThoeny: that should solve the scaling issues we have when multiple robots hammer on twiki.org at the same time [13:54] gmc: so -> who is going to set up these beasts.. [13:54] PeterThoeny: i have one person local here [13:54] PeterThoeny: and we will get help from the community [13:55] PeterThoeny: (we discussed that in a prev meeting, i will dig it up) [13:55] gmc: yes, i already volunteered on that i think, but just in case: i'm available for this [13:55] PeterThoeny: cool [13:55] PeterThoeny: :-) [13:55] PeterThoeny: ok, next: [13:55] PeterThoeny: ---++ 5. Press Releases [13:56] Kobby: Peter, we've been talking about this in the past - I guess we need to get our fingers out and move forward quickly [13:56] PeterThoeny: we have not made much progress, michael and i have been very busy [13:56] Kobby: I make a commitment to put up something by the end of the week [13:56] Kobby: Peter, can you ask Nokia re the possibility of using their quote? [13:56] PeterThoeny: thanks, all we need is a fist draft [13:57] PeterThoeny: i can run that by here to finalize [13:57] Kobby: OK - but we need some sort of quote to just "lift it up" [13:57] PeterThoeny: yes, let me do that this week (finally :-/) [13:57] Kobby: We need a quote that will help to position TWiki as the wiki for everyone - not just the techies [13:58] Kobby: A quote that could mention the use of the new WYSIWYG editor would be even better [13:58] PeterThoeny: xactly [13:58] Kobby: Wysiwyg editor has been out there for a while now - it should be possible to get a quote [13:58] Kobby: Anyone else here got any clients who are using it? [13:59] PeterThoeny: i have another potential quote from a small company, and another one from a very big company [13:59] gmc: i haven't been putting the new wysiwyg in any production environments yet :( [13:59] PeterThoeny: time check: almost +60 min [14:00] PeterThoeny: ---++ 7. Merchandising [14:00] gmc: post 4.2 still imho [14:00] PeterThoeny: no action so far [14:00] gmc: nope.. [14:00] Kobby: I agree - post 4.2 [14:00] PeterThoeny: rod would like tio get moving though [14:00] gmc: ok... [14:00] PeterThoeny: twiki.net might put some resource on this [14:01] gmc: according to carlo, we need some appealing graphics for shirts etc... the twiki logo sec won't cut it [14:01] PeterThoeny: hey, see this: [14:01] PeterThoeny: at the silicon valley twiki user meetup there was vicki of yahoo [14:01] gmc: but the main thing is how to handle finances.. i still prefer a non-profit for the community, but that hasn't been discussed really yet [14:01] PeterThoeny: she had a black shirt with BIG letters: it's in the twiki! [14:02] gmc: heh :) [14:02] Kobby: That's not bad :) [14:02] PeterThoeny: i like that quote very much [14:02] PeterThoeny: especially if you walk around the hallways in a company that uses twiki! [14:03] PeterThoeny: so i think a big catchy phrase and a small logo is all we need [14:03] PeterThoeny: vicki also said that the shirt is black because you do not see the spills from lunch [14:04] gmc: too much detail Peter :) [14:04] PeterThoeny: referring to herself as a geek [14:04] PeterThoeny: :-) [14:04] Kobby: LOL [14:04] PeterThoeny: next [14:04] PeterThoeny: ---++ 8. TWiki Meetups [14:04] gmc: jot it down on the gadgets topic! [14:04] gmc: (except the part with the messy lunch :) [14:04] PeterThoeny: we had a successful meetup, the one in the silicon valley [14:05] PeterThoeny: rod sent an email we can use as a blog post [14:05] PeterThoeny: i will do so [14:05] Kobby: What email was that, Peter? [14:05] PeterThoeny: next event is on 2008-01-25 in amsterdam [14:05] gmc: PetreThoeny_: maybe introduce the next meetup in amsterdam in the same post.. [14:06] PeterThoeny: rod sent an email internally with his impressions on the meetup [14:06] gmc: PetreThoeny_: and you said i could ping you for that list of email addrss of dutch twiki users [14:06] gmc: consider this a ping :) [14:06] PeterThoeny: k [14:06] PeterThoeny: just to reiterate, user meetups are a very good way to engage users [14:06] PeterThoeny: get their passion [14:07] PeterThoeny: and to nurture the twiki ecosystem [14:07] PeterThoeny: in addition, bloggers and press will notice this over time [14:07] gmc: agreed so i'm happy to have any in nl.. curious about turn-out though [14:07] PeterThoeny: so it is a win-win for all if we organize many meetups [14:08] gmc: i might get a press release out about it, some befriended techie news sites might even put it up [14:08] gmc: i hope to get something regular going.. once every 2 months for starters.. [14:08] PeterThoeny: yes, i sent our invite to some user groups in the valley, networked people like to network, so they come :-) [14:08] Kobby: I guess the one in NL will be in English, right? [14:09] gmc: Kobby: if Rod is there, yes :) [14:09] gmc: or CDot even.. [14:09] PeterThoeny: in the silicon valley we will have quarterly user meetups initially [14:09] gmc: quarterly, sounds fine too [14:09] PeterThoeny: if there is demand we might do it even monthly [14:09] gmc: no need to overdo it in the beginning.. [14:09] PeterThoeny: yes [14:09] PeterThoeny: i think we are done with the agenda items [14:10] PeterThoeny: anything else we should discuss? [14:10] Kobby: Nothing from me [14:10] gmc: not to my knowledge atm [14:10] PeterThoeny: we started 10 min late and stop 10 min late [14:10] PeterThoeny: not too bad :-) [14:10] gmc: excellent :) [14:10] PeterThoeny: thanks all! [14:10] Lavr: Thanks. [14:10] gmc: i'll be off then... thanks all for facilitating & taking notes [14:11] Kobby: Cheers everyone - good night [14:11] Lavr: Koen I know you love blogs so I just wrote one ;-) [14:11] gmc: YaY! [14:11] PeterThoeny: i'd like to add that it is really a pleasure working with the community in a coodinated way! [14:11] * PeterThoeny is looking at the blog... [14:12] Lavr: Yes. One thing I look forward to with 4.2.0 release is to get time to discuss the open feature requests again. [14:12] Lavr: We have a small backlog of mostly very good proposals. [14:13] gmc: i hope that includes my class-like thingy, which has matured since i originally put it on t.o [14:13] PeterThoeny: nice one kenneth, in the spirit of the community! [14:14] Lavr: Koen. It lacks some feedback as I recall it. I am sure you will get more when 4.2.0 is out. [14:14] gmc: ps, can we get stats on whose reading the blog / rss feed ? [14:14] gmc: Lavr: it lacks some work from my side too [14:14] Lavr: I will as customer advocate try and restart any stale discussion. [14:14] gmc: Lavr: ball is in my court [14:15] Lavr: The best is always when the original proposal is changed so that we can reach a consensus. That is always better than a voted decision [14:16] gmc: according to sven, the best way to get thingsaccepted is to check them in and then create a proposal :) [14:16] Lavr: Well. That I cannot agree with. That is the bully method and one of the ways to get me to explode. [14:17] Lavr: In reality most decisions are 14 day rule decisions. [14:17] Lavr: Which means people either don't care or think it is OK and does not need to discuss anything. [14:18] Lavr: But because of the 4.2.0 bug backlog noone have had the energy to decide on new features for a while. [14:19] gmc: who need new features when you've got old bugs :) [14:19] Lavr: And the world is not black and white. The new handler Crawford added is in principle a violation to both release process and feature freeze but anyone with a minimum of brain could see and understand that it was needed to fix the super-urgent-release-blocking merge issue with TMCE so naturally that met no resistance. [14:20] *** Kobby has signed off IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]"). [14:21] PeterThoeny: i will post the logs [14:23] Lavr: OK. Back to #twiki