Session Start: Mon Jun 16 20:52:23 2008 Session Ident: #twiki_marketing [20:52] * Now talking in #twiki_marketing [20:52] * Topic is 'http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2008x06x02' [20:52] * Set by peterthoeny on Mon Jun 02 21:07:10 [20:54] * Lavr changes topic to 'http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2008x06x16' [20:55] * peterthoeny has joined #twiki_marketing [21:02] * PeterThoeny__ has joined #twiki_marketing [21:03] hi koen (here?), kenneth, sven (here?), markus [21:03] Hi Peter [21:05] let's see how many folks we will be today [21:05] i just had a nice chat with colas [21:05] Few. We are up against a big football match [21:05] he will not be able yo join this meeting, family obligations [21:06] ah, sports [21:06] never interested me to watch on tv [21:06] except sumo while i was in japan :-) [21:06] I watch motorsport if I watch. Like Le Mans [21:07] It is Austria vs Germany now. So you will see no Germans today. [21:07] 22 mins into the match and 0-0 [21:08] ah [21:08] And Poland vs Croacia at the same time [21:08] Also at 0-0 :-) [21:09] you need a split screen tv [21:09] or two tvs [21:09] I am not too much into Football. To few goals [21:09] too much hysteria if you ask me.. [21:09] did i mention the commercial circus? :) [21:09] evening btw [21:09] the hysteria is scary [21:09] Yes. hysteria over goals not scored. Hi Koen [21:10] Hi there. :) Seems there's at least one German. ;) [21:10] hi koen [21:10] long time no see [21:10] Lavr: over here people get hysteric even before the ek started.. [21:10] ek? [21:10] PeterThoeny__: indeed, been very very busy lately [21:10] You mean EM :-)) [21:10] Or EC [21:10] oh, my bad.. of course no-one except the dutch call it europese kampioenschappen :) [21:11] h [21:11] ah [21:11] i undrstand that much dutch :-) [21:11] time check: +11 min [21:12] so i was just popping by, i've only got 30 minutes i'm afraid [21:12] shall we start? using agenda? free form discussion? cancel? [21:12] arthur is in the train from duesseldorf to home [21:12] he will be late [21:13] I am traditionally not that involved in the marketing stuff so I am mostly here to listen on these meetings. [21:13] * ArthurClemens has joined #twiki_marketing [21:13] good evening [21:13] Hi Arthur [21:14] hectic days this is [21:14] ah, hi arthur! [21:14] welcome here! [21:14] thanks for joining in busy times :-) [21:15] wow, high load on server, let me bump 62.134.199.226 on deny [21:15] where are the marketing people? [21:15] * PeterThoeny_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [21:15] can't be all german? [21:15] Austria - Germany - 30 mins 0-0 That is where they are [21:16] * wbniv has joined #twiki_marketing [21:16] carlo: german [21:16] vicki: usa [21:17] * wbniv is now known as WillNorris [21:17] * WillNorris waves [21:17] hi will! [21:17] Hi Will. [21:17] nice to see you here :-) [21:17] i saw t-shirts on the agenda ;-) [21:17] hi [21:17] I just had a look at the page again [21:17] ok, let's start [21:17] i can facilitate [21:17] who is taking minutes? [21:18] martin and carlo excused themselves (fussball i think) [21:19] minutes in the sense copying the log? [21:19] or action items? [21:19] attach log, also update meeting page with key points we discussed [21:19] I can upload the log. But I am a little busy on the side to take minutes during the meeting [21:19] let me try [21:19] ok thanks [21:20] ---++ 1. Usability & Home Page Redesign [21:20] http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiOrgRenewalWorks2008ToDo [21:20] arthur? [21:20] no contributions yet :-( [21:20] but I have updated the page [21:20] in a more loose format [21:20] * peterthoeny has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [21:20] no tables, no predefined structure [21:21] we can add order afterwards [21:21] that's it [21:21] we could try to just create the pages [21:21] How should these pages look like? And where should we create them? [21:21] so it becomes more real [21:22] yes, we can create skeleton pages in the twiki web [21:22] that is what this page is for: to define what is on them [21:22] where: we can start with Codev [21:22] and move the contents later to the other webs [21:22] arthur, for example on support, is the idea to create a new support intro page or to redesign the support.webhome page? [21:23] Is there a layout that was agreed? There were so many proposals and discussions [21:23] for analyst/reporter i'd like to see a compare page [21:23] to redo the support homepage to some extend [21:23] well, the analyst persona has not been done yet [21:24] pending job I would say [21:24] your plate [21:24] for point haired managers some content on why use twiki from biz perspective [21:24] we don't need to redo the personas [21:24] here [21:24] yes, perona pages are good [21:24] "persona" [21:24] it can all be looked up in http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebPageAudienceSiteStructure [21:25] if things are missing add comments to http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebPageAudience [21:25] peter, I have the feeling you miss this content only when there is a meeting :-) [21:26] shall I make this an action item? [21:26] any remarks from others? [21:27] * peterthoeny has joined #twiki_marketing [21:27] sorry, network issue [21:27] what did you get last? [21:28] my bad, i should give more feedback on webpageaudience [21:28] as I said, I can make this an action item [21:28] if that helps [21:28] yes please do, assign to me [21:29] Lavr, gmc, WillNorris, any comments? [21:29] I am still in doubt of the layout. [21:30] I do not see landing pages as something with a lot of text [21:30] i think next step is to create the high level landing pages in the TWiki web [21:30] Lavr: which layout? [21:30] people will give feedback once there is some content [21:30] How should these pages look like. Just plain bullet points with links? [21:30] peterthoeny: the pages are not only for the twiki web [21:31] we can start this without any changes to the layout in fact [21:31] just add the proper links and content [21:31] I know I won't have time do to a redesign now [21:32] section 1, 2, 4 look like twiki web is a good home [21:32] No, the sections are webs [21:33] can we quickly run though the sections? [21:33] 1. twiki intro and download [21:33] seems like twiki web except for download page [21:33] ? [21:34] why not the download in the twiki web? [21:34] yes we could move it, although thousands of links point to the codev.downloadtwiki [21:35] my artist (alex) can do some actual page design, when the time is right, but i don't think we know what that is now? [21:35] There should not be so much design that noone can edit and improve it afterwards. That has happened to a couple of WebHome's on our Moto Twiki [21:35] WillNorris: that would help. Better yet if he can do css. [21:36] section 2: examples [21:36] the new Examples web [21:36] is this examples how to use twiki? or twiki apps examples? [21:36] the latter [21:36] ah [21:36] i think there are two parts [21:37] one is examples on using twiki (permissions, forms etc), and apps (apps repository, examples, demos) [21:37] do you want both in one web? [21:38] are they really different? [21:38] I am not talking about documentation [21:38] but show and tell [21:39] what about show and tell how to use twiki core features? [21:39] such as registering user, setting permissions on web etc? [21:39] such as customizing user homepage [21:39] yes, they belong there [21:40] anything that is beyond documentation [21:40] of course there need to be heavy crosslinking [21:40] hmm, from advanced wiki champion wouldn't it be better to have an Apps web as repository of apps, examples of apps, screenshots of apps? [21:41] we talked about building a new community before, the apps community [21:41] yes, that is my idea [21:41] thse are non programmers [21:41] power users [21:41] looking for automating things [21:42] i rather call the web Apps than examples [21:42] Apps is for programmers [21:42] Examples can be wider than that [21:42] your example: customizing a user homepage [21:43] Apps looks like downloadable ready applications, a marketplace [21:43] But "Examples" does not signal that it is a place you exchange applications. [21:43] my point is that core twiki examples and app examples are two different animals, e.g. two different user bases [21:43] new twiki admins like examples to see how to get started and customize twiki [21:44] after 6 month they know twiki and come to twiki.org to learn how to automate things [21:44] here you go [21:44] so, same user, different times [21:44] but if they were together, wouldn't that provide a natural progression from ground zero twiki to more advanced thing [21:44] s? [21:44] so they are somewhat different, but not exclusive [21:44] WillNorris: exactly [21:45] proper segmenting [21:45] leading from one to the other [21:45] i have a hunch that it would be helpful to distinguish between beginner admin and advanced admin [21:45] peterthoeny: yes, seems likely as well [21:45] I think we can put some "Showcase" applications in the Applications web which "sells" TWiki and link to this as "Examples" [21:45] point is that people want to make that distinction themselves [21:45] yes [21:46] if you look at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WebPageAudienceSiteStructure#Site_structure_in_more_detail [21:46] last item is the marketplace [21:46] in that section [21:46] question is if we need a new Examples web for that, or if we simply create 10-20 pages in the twiki web for that [21:47] that will make the navigation and the url structure look more complicated [21:47] (besides the Apps web) [21:47] no Apps web [21:47] add Apps to Examples web [21:47] i think we need an apps web [21:47] I would put the examples in the Apps web but I do not like the word Examples for the web because it does not signal what the primary use is for that web. [21:47] the apps community will be big [21:47] hundreds of apps posted in the repository [21:47] how do you know? [21:48] * PeterThoeny__ has quit IRC (Connection timed out) [21:48] hunch [21:48] I feel we are focussing on a detail here [21:48] i have seen the same with teh plugins api and plugins ewb [21:48] something in the far future [21:49] not so far [21:49] we need to focus on first needs first [21:49] again, Apps web has not been highlighted in the persona needs [21:50] sorry they are [21:50] in which case I can't remember why I put "(future)" there [21:51] hmm, can't find right now the page on the apps web [21:51] It is future but not far ;-) Just waiting for the new t.o server to be working then I start [21:51] kenneth you are interested in teh apps web, any feedback? [21:52] the apps web needs to be considered in the site structure once we have it [21:52] What I just said. I want to get started with something simple when I have a t.o. on 4.2.X [21:53] kenneth it is for testing, add /4x2 after /cgi-bin [21:54] That is the old server? [21:54] Apps or Examples - if we choose Apps how can we introduce the kind of examples as they are in Sandbox? [21:54] arthur: since we plan an apps web, how would you like to put this into the site structure? [21:55] the idea is to move all sandbox apps to the Apps web as live sample apps [21:55] depends on what is going to be in Apps (or Examples) [21:55] this is besides the apps repository in same web [21:55] apps web is tailored to power users and experienced wiki champions [21:56] how could we use this to "Sell" twiki better? [21:56] content: apps repository, live sample apps (showcase), forum to discuss apps [21:56] I mean new users [21:56] Once you see what TWikic [21:56] i think new users are overwhelmed with all this power stuff [21:57] can do with very simple means -you want TWiki [21:57] IMHO [21:57] but we can showcase what is possible with screenshots and live apps [21:57] e.g. make it look simple, but not something they want to use right away [21:57] what has been lacking so far in the plugins web - screenshots and demos [21:57] they = new twiki admins [21:58] The meeting minute sandbox example is a good one. A simple app with ONE page + template and you have a powerful application. [21:58] yes, good point on screenshots and demos in plugins web [21:58] we would need to make a shell: pick out highlighted applicationse/examples, gallery with explanations [21:58] yes, the meeting minutes app is a good one [21:59] again, for new twiki admins it might be better to show screenshot of "what is possible" when you want more [21:59] that is good point arthur, highlighted apps with screenshots [21:59] same for extensions [22:00] I would be fine to downgrade the "Examples" pages to a more structured set of pages in "About twiki" web [22:00] coghead does it well (the presentation), see https://www.coghead.com/apps [22:00] then we need to make some more effort to link to apps and vice versa [22:00] time check: +60 min [22:00] i have 30 min left [22:01] * peterthoeny has a busy day, no lunch yet [22:01] peterthoeny: so that is what you meant, isn't it? [22:02] i am wondering if we need a new web besides apps to show examples [22:02] although "Applications" sounds already better than "Apps" [22:02] peterthoeny: that is what I am saying [22:02] Is Applications too long for the left bar? [22:02] I would be fine to downgrade the "Examples" pages to a more structured set of pages in "About twiki" web [22:02] i like short urls [22:03] we can simply create a LONGWEBNAME in webpreferences [22:03] and show that in skin [22:03] so web name is Apps, dsiplay name is Applications [22:03] the left bar is too small. it may also go [22:03] same for extensions [22:03] I love the left bar [22:04] leave web name as Plugins, and show display name Extensions [22:04] the current small size is a compromise [22:04] actually, i find the lefbar on 4.2 to wide for small screens [22:04] If the navigation on the first pages say "Applications" it is quite OK that the web is called Apps. People learn that in minutes [22:04] 4.1 had a smaller width [22:05] arthur, back on non-apps examples, where do those go? [22:05] yes, some people wanted a small left bar for cairo [22:06] somewhere near "Main Features" [22:06] e.g. the how to customize homepage and other things new admins are looking for [22:06] question in what web? [22:07] About TWiki, and link to there from Applications [22:07] ok [22:07] good discussion here, we get there! [22:07] in this case it becomes more of a showcase [22:08] on showcasing we can copy^H^H^H^Hborrow from coghead [22:08] How to customize should be in TWiki web and be distributed also. [22:08] and we already have some of that [22:09] thanks to Arthur :-) [22:09] you mean https://www.coghead.com/overview [22:09] https://www.coghead.com/overview/screenshots is god [22:09] good [22:09] yes, that one too [22:09] (large image size is lacking) [22:09] i was thinking of app gallery with highlighted apps on top [22:10] shall we mobe to next item? [22:10] ---++ 2. Blogging [22:10] vicki finished the newsletter app [22:10] and the feeds [22:10] we are in relatively good shape [22:11] wish we had more bloggin activity [22:11] 3. TWiki.org Performance [22:11] ---++ 3. TWiki.org Performance [22:11] see http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/4x2/view/Codev/NewTWikiOrgServer2008 [22:11] update [22:12] no luck on new hardware [22:12] we spent so much time [22:12] this afternoon i have a meeting at TWIKI.NET to see if the company should sponsor more for the community (half a rack hosting is already pricy) [22:13] ---++ 4. TWiki Meetups [22:13] not much news [22:13] i will be in switzerland and italy for vaction [22:14] i organize a twiki meetup in zurich [22:14] 14 people signed up [22:14] That is good [22:14] hoefully they eth guys will pick it up from there and continue it [22:14] * OliverKrueger has joined #twiki_marketing [22:14] hi oliver! [22:15] how was the match? [22:15] Hi Peter. [22:15] Which match? [22:15] champion for meet-ups was amir [22:15] he left twiki.net [22:15] 0-1 to Germany (TV is on without sound here) 72 minutes [22:15] i volunteer to take this for now [22:16] Hi Kenneth [22:16] Oh, soccer... that match. [22:16] Hi Oliver [22:17] 5. Merchandising ? [22:17] anything else on meet-ups? [22:17] ---++ 5. Merchandising [22:18] will? [22:18] WillNorris... [22:19] i've tasked my artist to make some new t-shirt designs [22:19] designs [22:19] he should have a bunch in a couple of days [22:19] nice. how shall we approach this? [22:20] cool [22:20] as the previous contributions in text and image have not gone anywhere [22:20] smothered as to say [22:20] vote on designs, comments? [22:21] what is your idea? [22:22] WillNorris: any comments? [22:22] sorry, was talking to a client.... [22:23] um [22:23] well [22:23] i don't really have an idea --- just was going to let the artist loose and see what he came up with ;-) [22:24] in twiki history everything design-wise has been a bit touchy feely [22:24] but let us see what comes out this time [22:24] in that case. [22:25] (the match must be really exiting now) [22:25] :-) [22:25] on spreadshirt, amir was uploading the new designs [22:25] since he left we need a new champion for the merchandize [22:26] will, would you like to take this over? [22:26] time check: +86 min [22:27] I don't think it is that easy [22:27] there are some rules about the use of the logo [22:27] someone should drive this [22:28] yes [22:28] but who is finally deciding if a design meets the logo standard - or is able to make free use of the logo [22:29] peterthoeny: yeah, i would [22:29] take over this area [22:29] we'll see how it goes [22:29] thanks will! [22:29] i'm willing to try [22:30] yes, final word on logo use is with the tm holder, e.g. me [22:30] i will take a liberal approach on open source use [22:30] having said that, logo use should promote open source twiki and have the right branding [22:31] branding is up to interpretation [22:31] but i think we can be flexible [22:31] for open source use [22:31] time check: +91 min [22:31] I will leave that up to you 2 [22:32] last item? [22:32] ---++ 6. Brainstorming for ideas [22:32] the one listed is actually an action item for me [22:32] open [22:33] anything new idea? [22:33] about registration? [22:33] no, in general [22:34] kenneth: how about creating the Apps web with nosearchall set to on? [22:34] so that you can start on the repository [22:34] Sure but the reason I wanted to wait for new server was two... [22:35] I want to use query search = 4.2.0 minimum [22:35] I want a server that responds in a reasonable time [22:35] use /cgi-bin/4x2/view [22:35] that one is unresolved :-( [22:36] I could start on my own. It is not too difficult to xfer a zip with the topics [22:37] ah, yes, that is a good solution too [22:37] shall we close the meeting? [22:38] * peterthoeny 's stomach is growling [22:38] I have no more [22:38] good. I have updated http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2008x06x16 with action items [22:38] we have not reviewed the action items on the meeting minutes index page [22:38] schluss then [22:38] please review on your own and close those who are done [22:39] ja, feierabend [22:39] thanks arthur, koen, kenneth, oliver, will [22:39] tschuessikowski. ;) [22:40] Bye [22:40] gn8 ;) [22:40] thanks all, good meeting! [22:41] * OliverKrueger has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!") [22:50] * ArthurClemens_ has joined #twiki_marketing [22:54] * WillNorris has quit IRC [22:55] * ArthurClemens has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Session Close: Mon Jun 16 23:07:58 2008