@1219691052 <PeterTheony> hi andre, oliver, sven (here?), vicki
@1219691074 <PeterTheony> how was your weekend?
@1219691088 -calvino.freenode.net- PeterThoeny_ (n=PeterTho@63.146.69.17) changed topic: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiMarketingMeeting2008x08x25
@1219691164 <VickiBrown> Mine's not quite over yet. I'm taking today off :)
@1219691282 <PeterTheony> ah, good for you :-)
@1219691314 <PeterTheony> on sat my son and i went to nasa ames to launch model rockets
@1219691323 <VickiBrown> funb
@1219691325 <VickiBrown> fun
@1219691338 <PeterTheony> http://lunar.mtrad.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=77148&g2_navId=xe20ffabe
@1219691359 <PeterTheony> my son build a rocket out of a dennies cup
@1219691409 <VickiBrown> you could almost launch one of the traffic cones :)
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@1219691428 -calvino.freenode.net- Lavr_ (n=donotlik@0x535b29eb.alb2nxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) joined the channel
@1219691435 <MartinSeibert> Hi all!
@1219691441 <Lavr> Hi all.
@1219691442 <MartinSeibert> Sorry for being late ...
@1219691447 <MartinSeibert> Hi Lavr
@1219691489 <PeterTheony> hi martin, hi kenneth
@1219691558 <PeterTheony> vicki: that's an excellent idea, we should try that! :-)
@1219691602 <VickiBrown> Peter - the complaint about the Y! crawler hitting twiki.org too much is working its way through channels
@1219691625 <VickiBrown> in search of the appropriate Person In Charge!
@1219691638 <PeterTheony> thanks vicki
@1219691647 <PeterTheony> seems to be better already
@1219691665 <VickiBrown> a few weeks ago, cfcl was DOS'd by googlebots!
@1219691685 <MartinSeibert> Are you talking about search engines?
@1219691692 <PeterTheony> time check: +12 min
@1219691705 <MartinSeibert> What is the current topic?
@1219691719 <PeterTheony> martin: we had high traffic from yahoo bots this morning
@1219691730 <VickiBrown> MartinSeibert:  yes :)
@1219691737 <PeterTheony> usually i put those bots on the deny list, but since this is yahoo...
@1219691750 <PeterTheony> shall we start
@1219691751 <PeterTheony> ?
@1219691757 <PeterTheony> i can faciliate
@1219691772 <PeterTheony> unless someone would like to step in?
@1219691780 <PeterTheony> who is taking notes?
@1219691791 <MartinSeibert> I can take the notes.
@1219691799 <MartinSeibert> Who is there at all?
@1219691822 <Lavr> I am here
@1219691828 <VickiBrown> VickiBrown: me
@1219691837 <MartinSeibert> Peter: To put the bots on the deny list leads to not being listed there at all. :-)
@1219691907 <MartinSeibert> Small group again ...
@1219691932 <PeterTheony> well, that's why i check
@1219691940 <PeterTheony> most bots are from private sources
@1219691961 <PeterTheony> s/most/most ill behaving/
@1219691974 <MartinSeibert> Right. Those should stay outside. Google and Yahoo! should be on the prio list.
@1219691977 <Lavr> often idiots that try to download a mirror
@1219691989 <PeterTheony> proposed agenda:
@1219691994 <PeterTheony> # 1. Usability & Home Page Redesign
@1219691994 <PeterTheony> # 2. Blogging
@1219691995 <PeterTheony> # 3. TWiki Meet-ups
@1219691995 <PeterTheony> # 4. Merchandising
@1219691995 <PeterTheony> # 5. TWiki.org Server
@1219691996 <PeterTheony> # 6. Registered non-profit association for donations
@1219691997 <PeterTheony> # 7. Brainstorming for ideas
@1219692035 <PeterTheony> anything to add?
@1219692053 <MartinSeibert> I have a proposal for an action item: 1. Main.MartinSeibert: Write a suggestion on how TWiki can cooperate with Search Engine Bots without lowering the server performance.
@1219692076 <VickiBrown> :)
@1219692081 <PeterTheony> i think that can be done with http throttling
@1219692085 <VickiBrown> I will look forward to reading that!
@1219692085 <PeterTheony> by ip address
@1219692121 <PeterTheony> ---++ 1. Usability & Home Page Redesign
@1219692133 <MartinSeibert> You can tell Google how often and how many pages to look at.
@1219692147 <MartinSeibert> I will come up with a proposal for a setting.
@1219692178 <MartinSeibert> No news from me concerning this item.
@1219692180 <PeterTheony> yes, that is the is with the "Crawl-delay" directive in robots.txt
@1219692197 <PeterTheony> bad ill-behaving bots ignore that by definition
@1219692259 <MartinSeibert> You could kick this and add GoogleBot:
@1219692260 <MartinSeibert> User-agent: *
@1219692260 <MartinSeibert> Crawl-delay: 120
@1219692288 <PeterTheony> yes, that is what we already have on twiki.org
@1219692294 <PeterTheony> 2 min
@1219692310 <MartinSeibert> http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=40364
@1219692311 <PeterTheony> no news on homepage redesign
@1219692332 <MartinSeibert> Peter: I know. I looked it up here: http://www.twiki.org/robots.txt
@1219692374 <PeterTheony> any comments on agenda item 1?
@1219692383 <MartinSeibert> None.
@1219692386 <Lavr> no
@1219692393 <PeterTheony> ---++  2. Blogging
@1219692460 <MartinSeibert> I have to add something to the agenda: "Preparations for TWiki Summit in Berlin"
@1219692467 <MartinSeibert> That is important.
@1219692477 <PeterTheony> vicki sent out newsletter on aug 8
@1219692482 <PeterTheony> thank you!
@1219692485 <MartinSeibert> I have nothing to say about "Blogging" though.
@1219692522 <VickiBrown> neither do I...
@1219692537 <PeterTheony> ok, let's add:
@1219692542 <MartinSeibert> Then let's move on ...
@1219692548 <PeterTheony> # 7. Preparations for TWiki Summit in Berlin
@1219692550 <PeterTheony> to teh agenda
@1219692567 <PeterTheony> ---++  3. TWiki Meet-ups
@1219692584 <PeterTheony> we need a champion for meet-ups
@1219692602 <Lavr> Who was it that was organising the meetup in Berlin?
@1219692658 <MartinSeibert> Carlo and I.
@1219692677 <Lavr> Ah good. Still at the Am Borsigturm Hotel?
@1219692679 <PeterTheony> thanks martin and carlo
@1219692703 <Lavr> (Trying to access Codev but t.o is hanging again)
@1219692704 <MartinSeibert> I am not available for a general championship though. Sorry.
@1219692723 <MartinSeibert> TWiki.org is unbearably slow.
@1219692735 <MartinSeibert> Should I say: "as always"? :-(
@1219692768 <PeterTheony> hmm, again yahoo bot :-/
@1219692777 <VickiBrown> you don't work at Y!. You don't KNOW "slow" :)
@1219692819 <MartinSeibert> Vicki: You mean TWiki at Yahoo! is slow?
@1219692824 <VickiBrown> yes :(
@1219692828 <MartinSeibert> The Yahoo-Website isn't. :-)
@1219692832 <VickiBrown> it's huge
@1219692835 <VickiBrown> no :(
@1219692848 <MartinSeibert> Vicki: Do you work at Yahoo!?
@1219692855 <VickiBrown> yes.
@1219692896 <PeterTheony> i will take the meetup-up champion role until we find someone who would like to step in
@1219692903 <MartinSeibert> The preparations for the MeetUp in Berlin are not that bad in my opinion.
@1219692921 <VickiBrown> PeterThoeny_: should there be > 1 championm? Perhaps one Europe and 1 US?
@1219692925 <MartinSeibert> We had some coverage from a couple of perl pages and mailing lists.
@1219692930 <PeterTheony> time check: +33 min
@1219692937 <PeterTheony> i have a hard stop at +60 min
@1219692939 <MartinSeibert> Carlo made publich the event at Xing.
@1219692969 <MartinSeibert> Let's move on then.
@1219692981 <MartinSeibert> There are much more important things!
@1219692997 <PeterTheony> vicki: no, we need one champion overall who is talking to folks to establish new meet-ups, and then a champion for each location
@1219693014 <PeterTheony> ---++ 4. Merchandising
@1219693022 <PeterTheony> no nes from will
@1219693028 <PeterTheony> i will ping him
@1219693028 <VickiBrown> oh. gotcha
@1219693042 <PeterTheony> ---++ 5. TWiki.org Server
@1219693053 <PeterTheony> finally good progress
@1219693054 <MartinSeibert> That is interesting!
@1219693063 <PeterTheony> x86 is almost ready
@1219693071 <PeterTheony> nas is now properly configured
@1219693081 <PeterTheony> eta is sometimes this week
@1219693086 <PeterTheony> to switch over
@1219693116 <PeterTheony> thsi consumed quite some time on me, and will consume more time
@1219693120 <Lavr> Exiting
@1219693140 <Lavr> (wish I could spell)
@1219693158 <MartinSeibert> Peter: Did you do the TWiki-update also?
@1219693185 <MartinSeibert> What about the performance?
@1219693258 <PeterTheony> yes, based on 4.2.2
@1219693267 <MartinSeibert> Cool.
@1219693274 <MartinSeibert> I am looking forward to that.
@1219693293 <MartinSeibert> Will it be ready for the TWiki Summit? That would be perfect!
@1219693310 <PeterTheony> there is unfortunately a negative performance hit moving from 4.1.2 to 4.2.2 if you have 36K+ users
@1219693327 <PeterTheony> yes, it will be ready by the summit
@1219693361 <MartinSeibert> How fast is the test installation at the moment?
@1219693367 <PeterTheony> all 36K users are initialized on each hit, even if you are a guest
@1219693372 <PeterTheony> not very efficient
@1219693407 <PeterTheony> still working on performance, too early to tell
@1219693419 <PeterTheony> will work on it tonight, can give details tomorrow
@1219693445 <MartinSeibert> Okay. Let's move on.
@1219693450 <PeterTheony> ---++ 6. Registered non-profit association for donations
@1219693472 <MartinSeibert> That is what I wrote before the meeting:
@1219693473 <MartinSeibert> Main.MartinSeibert had the idea to register a non-profit association in Germany to collect funds for TWiki-programmers. An approval for this process from Main.PeterThoeny is missing. If Peter agrees, Main.MichaelDaum and Main.MartinSeibert will prepare the process of registering the non-profit association. Maybe we could found in the course of the TWiki-Summit in Berlin. 
@1219693473 <MartinSeibert> The proposal for a German registered non-profit association simply comes from Main.MichaelDaum and Main.MartinSeibert being Germans. We will translate the needed and relevant documents in English also. An advantage is also, that a couple of other TWiki-Community-Members understand German also (Main.PeterThoeny, Main.SvenDowideit). Here are some documents (German), that describe the needed actions for registering the associatio
@1219693475 <MartinSeibert> [[http://www.ta7.de/txt/anleitun/anle0023.htm][Wie gr�ndet man einen Verein?]], [[http://vereinswiki.de/index.php/Spendenquittung_Geldspende_(Muster)][Spendenquittung Geldspende (Muster)]], [[http://vereinswiki.de/index.php/Antrag_auf_Steuerbeg%C3%BCnstigung_wegen_Gemeinn%C3%BCtzigkeit_(Muster)][Antrag auf Steuerbeg�nstigung wegen Gemeinn�tzigkeit (Muster)]], [[http://vereinswiki.de/index.php/Satzung][Satzung]],
@1219693480 <MartinSeibert> [[http://vereinswiki.de/index.php/Antrag_auf_Eintragung_in_das_Vereinsregister][Antrag auf Eintragung in das Vereinsregister]]
@1219693489 <PeterTheony> i guess you wait for a reply from me
@1219693495 <MartinSeibert> That's it. :-)
@1219693518 <MartinSeibert> I will not move without your "go". :-)
@1219693576 <PeterTheony> i am with kenneth, i am not convinced that the non-profit is the right thing to do (question how to distribute money for work already performed), but i do not want to block if you want to try it out
@1219693604 <PeterTheony> personally i think a system to coordinate work to be done and compensate accordingly would be better
@1219693605 <MartinSeibert> Hm.
@1219693628 <PeterTheony> so, please go ahead with these details:
@1219693642 <MartinSeibert> Will you give room and space to advertise for donations then?
@1219693671 <PeterTheony> 1. i will not be involved in the non-profit (i do not want to be the person deciding who gets what money)
@1219693700 <MartinSeibert> I have a similar way in mind, that Wikipedia raises money.
@1219693724 <MartinSeibert> Peter: That is okay for me. I want a community driven process. That fits.
@1219693749 <PeterTheony> 2. the twiki trademark can be used under these conditions: establish a wiki-neutral non-profit (such as wikifund.org), establish fund raising for more than one wiki, use of twiki name is ok within this context
@1219693812 <MartinSeibert> So a TWiki e.V. would not be okay for you?
@1219693824 <PeterTheony> what is e.v.?
@1219693847 <MartinSeibert> e.V. stands for "eingetragender Verein" (registered association).
@1219693852 <PeterTheony> ah
@1219693865 <PeterTheony> correct, please chose a wiki neutral name
@1219693888 <MartinSeibert> Why shouldn't it focus on TWiki solely?
@1219693895 <PeterTheony> that way you get what you want, a way to collect and distribute money for twiki.org contributors (and other wikis)
@1219693936 <MartinSeibert> Will there be advertisements on the TWiki-homepage and the TWiki-download page and other relevant sites, that ask for donations?
@1219693945 <PeterTheony> because i do not want to be associated with it (tax implications and others)
@1219693954 <Lavr> Naming wise as long as this is not a foundation that owns TWiki and represents 100% of the community a neutral NAME should be used but I see no problem that the foundation only funds TWiki related projects
@1219693987 <MartinSeibert> Okay.
@1219694010 <MartinSeibert> But still: Peter: Will it get the exposure it needs to collect funds?
@1219694061 <PeterTheony> we can add a small donate button on twiki.org homepage and codev and plugins home
@1219694079 <MartinSeibert> Please think about this beforehand. I do not want to put all the work in creating an association ending up not having a voice anywhere.
@1219694089 <PeterTheony> may be also on support web where people go for support?
@1219694099 <PeterTheony> time check: +53 min
@1219694125 <MartinSeibert> All I want to hear: Yes, it will get a reasonable exposure. 
@1219694134 <MartinSeibert> These answers sound like it.
@1219694143 <MartinSeibert> Download page would be nice also. 
@1219694165 <MartinSeibert> Just everywhere where the users receive value from TWiki.org.
@1219694218 <PeterTheony> i see this as an experiment
@1219694224 <PeterTheony> worth trying
@1219694235 <MartinSeibert> That you will support?
@1219694261 <PeterTheony> that i will not block, but not actively support
@1219694291 <MartinSeibert> Okay.
@1219694300 <MartinSeibert> I think that is enough. 
@1219694319 <MartinSeibert> I will think about it. I think that is too few in my opinion.
@1219694339 <PeterTheony> what is too few?
@1219694343 <MartinSeibert> It will be a lot of work to create and maintain such an organization.
@1219694360 <MartinSeibert> I do not want to beg for anything if I do it.
@1219694386 <MartinSeibert> If the core members do not "actively" support it, it might just not be the right thing.
@1219694396 <Lavr> I think you will run into people with the dilemma: "If I join I help but I also put myself in the situation that I cannot be the receiver of funding without an ethical issue"
@1219694463 <Lavr> The key thing for you Martin is if you can find people that will sit in the foundation management with you. I know Michael D wanted - that is two.
@1219694472 <MartinSeibert> I will think about it. I am still convinced, it would work.
@1219694509 <MartinSeibert> But I imagine a situation, where no exposure is granted and no funds are collected. Then the project is in vain.
@1219694527 <MartinSeibert> The distribution of money is not a problem in my opinion.
@1219694530 <Lavr> It is worth a try and it would be unfair for anyone to block you from trying
@1219694538 <PeterTheony> exactly
@1219694550 <PeterTheony> time check: +60 min
@1219694561 <PeterTheony> i need to sign off (still logging)
@1219694571 <MartinSeibert> That's nice. But would Peter set up the servers if would only try and then use other servers?
@1219694576 <Lavr> And since it is non-profit I see no problem with t.o exposure
@1219694582 <MartinSeibert> No, he would not.
@1219694585 <PeterTheony> please continue discussion, and then go on with "7. Preparations for TWiki Summit in Berlin"
@1219694628 <MartinSeibert> And I think, it is necessary, that an invest of 20-80 hours of work is covered by the community. 
@1219694640 <MartinSeibert> I will write up my ideas before the summit.
@1219694652 <MartinSeibert> We can talk about it on the summit again.
@1219694686 <Lavr> Sure. Also create Codev topic so people can support you with advice
@1219694703 <MartinSeibert> Sure, that is what I was thinking of.
@1219694746 <MartinSeibert> Let's move on then.
@1219694831 <MartinSeibert> ---++ 7. Preparations for TWiki Summit in Berlin
@1219694837 <MartinSeibert>    * Internet access at Motorola: Martin Seibert will have a UMTS-Flatrate with his macbook. Can anybody create a WLAN-Access point from that?
@1219694853 <MartinSeibert> Kenneth: How can we solve this?
@1219694853 <VickiBrown> I'm leaving the chat now. "See" you next time
@1219694868 -calvino.freenode.net- VickiBrown (n=vlbwork@nat/yahoo/x-438b37e3b2a1b180) left the channel
@1219694918 <Lavr> Good question. I have not tried to connect a UMTS modem to a WLAN router. Not sure you can.
@1219694939 <MartinSeibert> Is there any other possibility?
@1219694943 <Lavr> But it will be good that you bring it so we know we have at least one machine that has access outside our firewall
@1219694976 <MartinSeibert> There will not be PCs with web access, huh?
@1219694985 <Lavr> I believe we have an outside Internet access is a small room close by but I am not sure a wireless router will work to our meeting room.
@1219695084 <Lavr> I will have an internet access via our Firewall so we can minute on t.o etc
@1219695114 <Lavr> For the meeting  I think we have the right and enough agenda points
@1219695134 <Lavr> But we need to put time on the agenda. We should help each other with that
@1219695189 <MartinSeibert> Did you have a big conference with all on the same topic at the same time, the last time?
@1219695198 <Lavr> And it would be nice if the now TWO competing proposal for Governance would convert into one because right now we are more split on Codev then gathered around one proposal that evolves.
@1219695203 <MartinSeibert> Or rather small groups working on different issues?
@1219695236 <Lavr> We are now 12 signed up and there are always 1 or 2 that cannot make it so we are probably 10
@1219695246 <Lavr> We may also see new faces last minute.
@1219695360 <MartinSeibert> Okay.
@1219695369 <MartinSeibert> Will we end with this?
@1219695393 <Lavr> I have a hard time understanding why we ended up with TWO Governance proposals that are so alike. Only real difference is if there is a community council AND a technical board OR only ONE Board of Directors.
@1219695408 <Lavr> To be honest I can live with both models.
@1219695424 <Lavr> I just wish there would be some movement towards each other.
@1219695472 <MartinSeibert> The new proposal is too new for me. :-)
@1219695481 <MartinSeibert> I still have to read it through.
@1219695503 <Lavr> I think the time bound charters of the teams fit well into the original model as well.
@1219695550 <Lavr> The main difference is really if there is ONE council or TWO. One SOFT community focuced and one HARD technical focused -- or ONE that covers both.
@1219695589 <MartinSeibert> Can you give me a link?
@1219695599 <MartinSeibert> I might have missed something. :-)
@1219695601 <Lavr> one moment
@1219695650 <Lavr> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TaskTeamGovernance
@1219695678 <MartinSeibert> Okay. I see.
@1219695689 <MartinSeibert> And this: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TaskTeamGovernanceExamples
@1219695763 <MartinSeibert> I do not think, that we will not be able to find a compromise during the Summit. Do you doubt that?
@1219695770 <Lavr> Yes. And especially the example topic could fit 100% within the original proposal also. It is just the team definition developed in more detail. I think this is where we can easily find common ground
@1219695811 <MartinSeibert> I did not understand these documents to be a contradictory proposal. Is it?
@1219695855 <Lavr> TaskTeamGovernance and TWikiGovernance are not really that far apart.
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@1219695929 <Lavr> Main difference is the Board of Directors vs the split in TCC and TTB.
@1219695940 <Lavr> The latter being the model Ubuntu has chosen
@1219695950 <MartinSeibert> Andre: Are you here reading?
@1219695995 <MartinSeibert> Kenneth: Let's discuss this further in Berlin, okay?
@1219696026 <Lavr> That is what I want to avoid. The Summit in Sunnyvale ended up in a very nasty set of personal arguments.
@1219696065 <MartinSeibert> What can we do to prevent that?
@1219696068 <Lavr> Like when great statesmen meet - it is best to come prepared with an agreement that only needs the last bits and pieces
@1219696074 <MartinSeibert> What actions do you propose.
@1219696097 <Lavr> We can use the next days to develop the two proposals into one third common proposal that we can all sign up to.
@1219696141 <Lavr> Begin with the common ground and then only have a few details left to discuss at the Summit. 
@1219696156 <MartinSeibert> I will be happy to comment an revise. I do not feel ready to come up with a suggestion myself.
@1219696232 <MartinSeibert> I have to go. It's late here  ... :-)
@1219696289 <Lavr> Sure. Take care. 
@1219696312 <Lavr> We should by the way arrange a TCC meeting before the Summit.
@1219696351 <Lavr> Even Crawfords proposal recognice that at least initially there is a TCC so we need to live up to the honours ;-)
@1219696366 <Lavr> I think all are back from vacation now.
@1219696616 <MartinSeibert> Sure.
@1219696632 <MartinSeibert> Just make a proposal for a "date".
@1219696641 <MartinSeibert> I am offline ... :-)
@1219696643 <MartinSeibert> Bye