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CoffeeBreakArchives 2003


I don't see another good place to put this request. Can someone with Admin group priveleges change Codev.WebForm to add Cairo & Dakar to the ImplementationDate field?

Oh, and I guess another vote is in order to come up with the next "E" city name release once Beijing gets released? I looked for names, there aren't many that start with E. I have a list compiled for when it's time to start this process.

Thanks,

-- GrantBow - 04 Jan 2003

Its funny how Canada gets ignored.

  • Etobicoke - just to the west of Toronto
  • Edmonton - a long way further west of Toronto and the home of the "Edmonton Oilers" which was Wayne Gretsky's team before he defected.

And beleive me, ther are many, many more once you start looking!

-- AntonAylward - 05 Jan 2003

I said there weren't MANY (which is true) not that there aren't any. Edmonton to me is a great candidate. When YOU start looking you will find what I mean. I looked at a list of cities over one million people - the 408 most populous cities on the planet - and found exactly one starts with an "E". Esfahan (The second a has a ~ over it, also spelled Isfahan) in Iran. There's also Essen in Germany but I guess like Edmonton the population is under one million. (Source: http://www.citypopulation.de/cities.html)

-- GrantBow - 05 Jan 2003

I like Edmonton. It's easy to pronounce and big enough - wasn't winter olympics somewhere around?

-- PeterMasiar - 06 Jan 2003

The international space station website has charts for 1300 cities for when the space station is visible to the naked eye (http://www.hq.nasa.gov/osf/station/viewing/allcity.html), 99 of which begin with E. Personally I'm partial to Edmonton since I went to school there in grade 9 and my maternal grandparents live there now. :} (and no Edmonton hasn't held the Olympics; that was Calgary for the 1988 winter games) Other cities I would consider because I've heard of them more than once or twice are: Edinburgh, Scotland; El Paso, Texas(US); Eureka, California(US); Exeter, England.

-- MattWilkie - 06 Jan 2003

Not to mention East Putney, where I am smile

-- RichardDonkin - 07 Jan 2003

How about Ecuador, Eritrea or East Timor ??

And Richard - surely you meant EastPutney. (Go-on, fill in the details !!)

-- MichaelKearns - 08 Jan 2003

ReadmeFirst states that we should use the name of a capital, the Capital of the World link does not list any city starting with E. Today I talked to a colleague at work who is from Scottland - apparently Edinburgh was the capital in the past. My vote - Edinburgh - it's a nice city with history.

-- PeterThoeny - 08 Jan 2003

Yes, but capital of what? If you'll pardon the pun, the "Euro" is the "capital" of Europe. wink

If ity only has to be the capital of a state or province, then Edmonton is back in the running.

Now if the requirement is also that it is a CITY, we have the requirement that in order to be a city, it must have a cathederal, according to a long held cultural tradition....

-- AntonAylward - 08 Jan 2003

Isn't Entebbe the capital of Uganda? They got a cathedral I believe.

-- TomTo - 08 Jan 2003

Having not been part of the voting process in the past, how does the voting get started?

-- GrantBow - 09 Jan 2003

As an update for our non-UK cousins: Edinburgh is currently a capital city of a country called Scotland which is part of the United Kingdom. Lots more info about the UK and Scotland available on the CIA website: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html

-- RossC - 09 Jan 2003

Scotland is almost real country, former kingdom: IIRC, Scotland has own football team (real football, not the american one). I vote for it, too.

-- PeterMasiar - 09 Jan 2003

I live in Edinburgh, so Edinburgh gets my vote. But then I just registered today, so you probably shouldn't listen to me.....

-- GarethEdwards - 09 Jan 2003

Re voting: Presumably, someone will set up a table to record votes -- if I come across the previous vote I may even do it (but not at the top of my list right now).

Re my vote: I vote for Entebbe (assuming it is the capital of Uganda) -- I think doing so will appeal to a large non-Western audience, which would be a good thing.

-- RandyKramer - 09 Jan 2003

Scotland is a very real country, one of the member states of the "United Kingdom" (along with England and Wales). Edinburgh is the capital, and is where the Scottish Parliament sits. It's also home of the biggest New Year's party in Europe, and the Edinburgh Festival, and a really great castle. http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/tour/edintour.html

It's a wonderful city, one of the most beautiful in Europe. On behalf of the Scottish Tourist Board I highly recommend you visit!

I vote for "Edinburgh" (and this has nothing to do with the fact that the village of "Currie" is just outside it.... wink

-- CrawfordCurrie - 10 Jan 2003

Lice link about Edinburgh, Crawford. Castle is really impresive. Maybe every city honored to be release codename should have couple links from release homepage. No nice photos - no codename. wink

-- PeterMasiar - 10 Jan 2003

Recently I keep getting server errors. Sometimes I need to go BACK and resubmit the page - even a dozen times. Good test for BackToEditLosesText wink

-- PeterMasiar - 14 Jan 2003

As I mentioned before, Open Sorce Application Foundation was considering different wikis to power their website. I wandered to http://wiki.osafoundation.org today, and to my surprise I found oh so much familiar Edit Ref-By Diff menu at page footer. Yes, they selected Twiki! They are python shop, but Twiki is THE best!

-- PeterMasiar - 19 Jan 2003

Well all, I'm pretty much going to be offline from TWiki discussions from now on; I've just enrolled on an MBA and I can't see me having a lot of time to contribute. I'll try and wrap up any loose ends (like getting MailInAddOn into CVS and JavaPasteAddOn published) but that will be about it for my contributions for the next year and a half.

Good luck with CairoRelease and DakarRelease. I hope these and other future releases will be as successful as the last.

If you want to get hold of me, feel free to email. If anyone is willing to pay for my time for a piece of consultancy (on TWiki or otherwise) just let me know. I need to fund this course somehow.

Finally, if anyone is in Melbourne, drop me a line and we'll go for a beer.

Regards, M.

-- MartinCleaver - 21 Jan 2003

Oh no! Thank you very much for your contributions. You will be missed! Good luck and best wishes with your MBA and beyond.

-- GrantBow - 21 Jan 2003

Good luck with your course Martin. Thanks for all your help.

-- MattWilkie - 21 Jan 2003

At ImplicitPreOrBlockquote, TorbenGB mentioned excellent RuleOne: write the text as you would an e-mail. I think it is so obvious we missed it sometimes.

-- PeterMasiar - 23 Jan 2003

Guys, I just saw another Perl based groupware tool on Freshmeat named Mioga that I would point folks towards. I would have done a bit of an analysis but all the pages are in French, and Im not versed in that language...

http://freshmeat.net/projects/mioga/?topic_id=90%2C243%2C129%2C130

-- JohnCavanaugh - 20 Feb 2003

There's an interesting Zope-based ContentManagementSystem called Plone that has a large set of features - not very Wiki-like but interesting if you want a CMS.

Also, there is an article on blogs in the print edition of Linux Journal that mentions TWiki very briefly, treating Wikis as a sort of blog, along with CMSs - not something I agree with, but since blogspace is taking off at an astonishing rate (e.g. Google:google+blogger+acquisition just recently), it's not a bad thing to be associated with. The article is not online yet, but is discussed here.

-- RichardDonkin - 23 Feb 2003

Plone definately looks interesting, thanks for the link, Richard.

What is the next "E" release name? What's the process to decide on a name? Which topics haven't I found yet that relate to this?

-- GrantBow - 24 Feb 2003

I encourage you to start a TWikiVsOtherProducts topic if you find out more details on other collaboration tools.

On release names, we do not have a formal voting process. The discussions here point to Edinburgh for the "E" release, e.g. we have / will have AthensRelease, BeijingRelease, CairoRelease, DakarRelease and EdinburghRelease.

-- PeterThoeny - 26 Feb 2003

I just noticed that LINUX MAGAZINE has finally put their very good article on TWiki on-line: LAMP POST: Wiki Time.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 01 Mar 2003

Thanks for the link - the article is good, but unfortunately due to NoRegisterDownload it is directly linking to the old Dec 2001 release! If NoRegisterDownload was fixed, I think this would be a bit less likely to happen, but author should still link to http://twiki.org/download.html.

-- RichardDonkin - 03 Mar 2003

Add this article to your RecommndedReading list: Building Communities With software by Joel Spolsky. Although it doesn't mention wikis, it gives clear reasons for why wiki is such a good tool for collaborative discuission relative to other common software types (usenet, discussion boards, web forums, etc.). There are also good pointers on how wiki software could be improved.

-- MattWilkie - 04 Mar 2003

I found a good place to look for release names:

http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNServlet?nation=&english=Y&find=E*&place=capital&page=1

-- SamHasler - 05 Mar 2003

In a bookshop I stumbled over a book about virtual online project management. While the authors' site (http://www.vpmo.de/index.php?newlang=english) is more of an example of 'PHPNuke sans working skins, minus content', I found one interesting/peculiar point about categorizing "corporate portals' functionality". My summary: way complicated. They have 4 types (from http://www.vpmo.de/portal.php, my translation):

Corporate portals address the Corporation's employees and cooperating
partners. Nowadays, these are categorized acc. to functionality as
follows:
   * Enterprise Information Portal (EIP) = Provide personalisable
     informations.
   * Enterprise Collaboration Portal (ECP) = Provide a virtual
     workplace for collaboration of task groups.
   * Enterprise Expertise Portal (EEP) = Provide connections between
     specialists/experts [don't know what they mean exactly],
     respective to their skills and knowledge.
   * Enterprise Knowledge Portal (EKP) = Provide functionality of
     EIP, ECP und EEP: proactive transfer of information relevant to
     the user for the collaboration in a task group.
While EIP sounds so basic to me, that I wouldn't even mention it (personal Hypercard stack?), points 2 and 3 seem very TWiki-ish. I fail on point 4, proactive sounds like marketing-speak to me. Anyway, do 'corporate' people think this way? Is it necessary to have these categories and layers of administration? BTW: if all this fits better into an ongoing discussion that I missed: feel free to move it there. Could refers to advocacy/deployment/buy-in/mission statement.

-- PatrickHansmeier - 06 Mar 2003

I found interesting page: MeatBall:TourBusMap. It describes "public transit" linking different wikis. If interested, looks like we should establish a page (by convention TourBusStop).

BTW we spell Meatball wiki wrong: they spell it MeatballWiki, we MeatBall frown .

-- PeterMasiar - 07 Apr 2003

This is tangential to TWiki but of interest to web admins. I have just installed a very interesting perl cgi script on my personal web server called WPoison. It aims to foil spammers who scan the web for email addresses by generating a page of fake email addresses, and recursively linking to itself, so the number of fake addresses generated for the spammers is virtually infinite. Since I get dozens of spam emails per day, as do others here-- and some web masters get hundreds per day-- spam is something I take very seriously.

Speaking of which, some sites have implemented anti-spam methods by modifying all displayed email addresses in certain ways. Some are visually transparent, like coding @ as the displayable ascii % char, but that foils the spammer address collecting robots. Should TWiki implement a transparent method like this?

-- JonathanCline - 14 Apr 2003

I also have Wpoison running at http://donkin.org/ but I'm not convinced how useful it is - I don't get a lot of hits on the wpoison-containing pages.

As for transparent SpamProofing, see recent discussion at EmailAddressProtection.

-- RichardDonkin - 14 Apr 2003

Hi there, how's the coffee ? smile

Can anybody tell me, why does the text "webs: " (in DEF{"standardheader"}) in twiki.tmpl get's transformed into "web<br>"?

Cheers from Germany, Daniel

-- DanielKabs - 23 Apr 2003

The coffee here* is pretty good today.

In my twiki.tmpl the br is actually in the template; lines 15-16:

<font size="-2">%WIKITOOLNAME% webs: <br />
   %WIKIWEBLIST% </font>

WRT spam, http://www.cdt.org/speech/spam/030319spamreport.shtml says that the current method of email obfuscation by TWiki is actually surprisingly effective.

-- MattWilkie - 23 Apr 2003

I have to admit, I drink coffee rarely and if I do, only with plenty of milk and some sugar.

Sorry, I didn't give a complete view of the picture: Speaking about the current stable release, I customized the original twiki.tmpl to

  </td><td align="right">
   webs: %WIKIWEBLIST%
  </td>
which gets converted to HTML like
<dt> webs</dt><dd> 
I did not consider that the TextFormattingRules work in templates as well.

-- DanielKabs - 24 Apr 2003

I will give a WebCollaborationWithTWikiPresentation at the Internet Developer Group in a Netscape/AOL building in Mountain View, CA on Tuesday, 20 May 2003 at 7:00pm. For those who live in or near the Silicon Valley: It would be nice to meet some TWiki folks in person at this event smile

-- PeterThoeny - 07 May 2003

I recently ran across the Cross Referencing Linux pages again for the linux kernel, which is generated html symbol-referencing output of the kernel source. Now that's a good use of the web for s/w engineers if I ever saw one. Anyone want to port it as a twiki plugin?

Here are some examples of it's cross referencing abilities.

Seriously though, I had hacked up a similar tool for a large s/w project and part of a cvs-file-linker. It ran on-the-fly though, and was a bit slow. Theirs is definitely better.

-- JonathanCline - 11 May 2003

A combination of Wiki, LXR, and ViewCVS, and perhaps also WikiAsSourceCodeControl (I can't find the page just now) and Literate Programming, might indeed be very neat. Note also SelfProgrammingWiki on Meatball. I'm pondering superficial LXR and ViewCVS integration for a hypothetical Parrot VM development wiki.

-- MitchellNCharity - 12 May 2003

Follow-up in SelfProgrammingWiki

-- PeterThoeny - 13 May 2003

I do not know if it is the best place, but in which way would you bring the attention of the CoreTeam and other involved people to review "near final" feature specs... NewEmailNotificationSystem in my case smile ?
-- ColasNahaboo - 13 May 2003

I'll like to work on better standard distro (TimDistro - Twiki improved), which will include bunch of customizations, so new Twiki adopters do not have to invest lot of time to do them. They will go preinstalled, and just need be enabled. because I do not have CVS right, I cannot do any changes in Twiki code, however small and insignificant. Is there any memeber of CoreTeam willing to look at changes what I'll like to have, and consider adding them to the core code, so I do not have to fork?

-- PeterMasiar - 2x May 2003

Forgive me if this has already been asked (I couldn't find it on the site)... is there a list of TWiki users' favourite TWiki sites? It would seem to be a key step in helping advocate the product. I'm sold on TWiki as a platform - I use it for my not-for-profit site http://www.annandaleroad.org - but there are times when I think "What exactly is possible?" and it's a bit of a struggle to find out. It's at times like these when having some great sites to browse through would help me understand just what this software is capable of. And it would also allow me to, er, copy the way it's been done!! Thoughts?

-- AndrewGambier - 25 May 2003

Good idea, Andrew. If anybody likes some site, could add it into NiceSite list. I have bunch of bookmarks at work...

-- PeterMasiar - 26 May 2003

See also the TWikiInstallation directory with links to public TWiki sites.

-- PeterThoeny - 27 May 2003

Just coming back from the WWW conference ( http://www2003.org ) People begin to talk about Wiki sites. I think it should be beneficial for the wiki communities to begin to push more the wiki concept there, with the following benefits:

  • More users: more potential worforce and testers
  • Audits from usability luminaries (Present at the conf were Ben Schneidermann, Wendy Hall, Jenny Preece...), not just developers/hackers
  • Trying to meet other wiki communities to get some unification between the wiki concepts (syntax, features?)
The next one will be this time of the year in New York, maybe Peter (or others) could present a paper there? We could also lobby to get a panel session with other authors of Wiki systems there? (or other conferences?)

Note: Sebastien Paquet (look at his paper he presented at a very interesting workshop I attended there: http://is.njit.edu/vci-www2003/ ) is apparently going to do some research work on the Wiki systems, he may be an interesting guy to get on board (I talked him into it, we will see).

Basically, we need to reach out to fetch some human factors / usability experts, conferences may be an useful tool for this.

-- ColasNahaboo - 27 May 2003

I agree with Colas - consulting usability experts is the only way to go. Programmers (hackers) are well-known for newbie-hostile design. wink

We already have one usability expert on boad (but not in CoreTeam frown yet): ArthurClemens, see his comments from 16 Nov 2002 in TooUglyForNonTechnicalUsers. To prove he is an expert, see his skin at http://www.visiblearea.com/Patterns/ as he published it in ConsolidateFunctionalityFromSkins

-- PeterMasiar - 28 May 2003

I have to make a quick correction here: I wouldn't call myself a usability expert, but an interaction designer. Designers make up things, usability experts test them. At our office I do work with usability people during various design phases, if clients are willing to pay for this (they do if the importance is great enough). It is fun and interesting to sit at a usability test (spying in a different room), to see real people interact with the things you make up. I learn the most from this. These can be real simple things that designers at our place do over and over again (wrong), like putting the meta navigation in a frame at the bottom of the screen. It appears that this design element often hides the natural flow of the content page - the text looks finished, because it has a footer (the bottom frame) so people aren't inclined to scroll the page. Quite alarming if this is a booking form for an airline.

I set up this TWiki to capture my knowledge (and that of colleagues) in design patterns, but at the moment I am quite occupied leading a Special Interest Group for Flash developers and designers. Well, I hope to catch up later.

One thing that twiki.org should take over rather sooner is Copybox (see the edit page there to see it in action). It is a hassle to copy my signature from the current Edit page!

-- ArthurClemens - 28 May 2003

ThankYouPeterThoeny

-- MattWilkie - 29 May 2003

For those not wanting to copy signatures I find the JavascriptBasedEditor great. Enable by putting:

      * Set SKIN = iejs

on your user page (no trailing spaces). This gives single click for signature insertion and many other useful shortcuts.

-- JohnTalintyre - 01 Jun 2003

True, and it is very useful, but IejsIsNotASkin and treating it as one is definitely a hack - for one thing it sits very awkwardly when you do want a skin as well. What do you think, John, of PageType? That suggests particular editors for each different type of content.

-- MartinCleaver - 01 Jun 2003

The Perl 6 team (Parrot) seems to be using TWiki internally, see http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=200305280048.h4S0mCU03726%40vendian.org

-- PeterThoeny - 04 Jun 2003

Congratulations! That's a very significant win! I wonder what mods they made and how we can roll them back in?

-- MartinCleaver - 04 Jun 2003

There seems to be some use of PhpWiki in Parrot, I can't seem to find a TWiki site.

-- JohnTalintyre - 04 Jun 2003

Try here: http://www.vendian.org/parrot/wiki/

-- SamHasler - 04 Jun 2003

Just a note to say I've created the topic FeatureXIsIsNotEvil. The reason I'm noting it is because the intent is to move arguments that would often be deemed "trolling", or "Holy Wars" in there. After all frames good/bad is such a one with good arguments on both sides. Just like whether you like Marmite smile Similar sorts of arguments I'd expect there would be Apache vs IIS, RPM vs CPAN, which is the best Unix, etc. I'm not trying to encourage them (*), but if we have a "standard" place to put things that get out of hand worth keeping "handy", then we can reduce the noise level a touch smile

  (*)
...or discourage - most arguments have benefits IME.

I'd hope that anyone who's comments got moved there by me doesn't take it personally ! Accidental trolls are a good thing, and playing devil's advocate is something I think is a good thing smile

-- MichaelSparks - 15 Jun 2003

A nice success that raises the visibility of TWiki: Sun just started a developer's site called java.net. This site contains a TWiki at http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Main/WebHome. Apparently they were talking about it at JavaOne at the keynotes (to 12,000 java developers).

-- PeterThoeny - 16 Jun 2003

Looks neat! Apparently they first (only?) made the default view template, on other pages you can still see the TWiki out of the box skin.

-- ArthurClemens - 16 Jun 2003

Personally I love the irony smile It's a Java website, and they could've used a Java based Wiki, but use a Perl based one instead smile

-- MichaelSparks - 17 Jun 2003

TWikiUsage - Google reports 146 results (sites?) and 4660 indexed pages when you search for "powered by twiki" - http://www.google.com/search?q=%22powered+by+twiki%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=180&sa=N

( Or should that link be Google:powered by twiki smile ? )

-- AndyPryke - 17 Jun 2003

Google:powered+by+twiki (works, but is an AND search not an EXACT PHRASE search)

-- MattWilkie - 17 Jun 2003

I am currently in the mountains of Switzerland in vacation. If you are in Switzerland drop me an e-mail. smile

-- PeterThoeny - 17 Jun 2003

I've been seeing a lot of fresh names in the changelogs lately; some are completely new, some just haven't been heard from in a long time. To all of you, Welcome Aboard! It's good to see some fresh growth and different perspectives. Combine that with the old-timers' energy seen of late and I think we might be approaching an exclamation point in twiki's punctuated evolution shortly.

Peter Thoeny, we've been hearing a lot more from you in the last week too, which is great, but aren't you supposed to be on holidays? Get lost eh? smile

-- MattWilkie - 22 Jun 2003

Re the discussion on no. of sites using TWiki - see earlier in this page, or perhaps in the archive, for an exhaustive discussion - should probably be refactored.

Also ... KarstenSelf's very informative page on the SCO vs. IBM situation is probably one of the highest-traffic TWiki pages in the history of the Internet smile ... A great demo of group collaboration using TWiki - one of the comments on the page mentions how useful the Diffs feature is.

-- RichardDonkin - 26 Jun 2003

This years ICFP contest kicks off in under 5 hours time. Good luck to any TWiki developers having a go smile

  • Since Perl's functional programming support (Google:ICFP) is rather basic, I'm not sure that many would be sufficiently into FP to do this. However, I have been looking at OCaml, which supports FP and OOS, and is as fast as C and higher level than Perl, with support for hashes, regexes, and so on. Maybe next year smile ... [ RichardDonkin 03 Jul 2003 ]

-- MichaelSparks - 27 Jun 2003

I created "admin central overview" page. I called it AdminTools. Enjoy, or remove if it's not approprate.

-- PeterMasiar - 02 Jul 2003

I found a page about WikiBot - IRC robot which writes IRC talk into wiki page. Author plans to support Twiki, too - maybe he can use some help from our gurus? Like add text using CommentPlugin?

-- PeterMasiar - 04 Jul 2003

Four years of TWiki? Doing a recent cleanout of my laptop (mainly cleaning up various TWiki installs) I came across my very first TWiki tar ball from 4 years back. This coincided with me adding a "conversations" link to my WIKIWEBLIST variable on my home page. Ironically this brought back visible (to me) my very first comment on these pages. I looked through the features wanted/purposes and have added a small summary of how things have changed over the past 4 years.

It's interesting to see how much has stayed the same and what hasn't! Bit of an indulgance, but it's nice to think of how far things have come!

-- MichaelSparks - 07 Jul 2003

Michael, interesting comparision of Twiki 4 years ago and now. But it's yet another gem hidden between thousand pages of user registrations in Main web.

-- PeterMasiar - 07 Jul 2003

Congrats to PeterMasiar for hosting (http://use.perl.org/~RobertX/journal/) the discussions for CPAN:Cgi::Application (a Perl-based ApplicationServer) at his http://twiki.med.yale.edu/twiki2/bin/view/CGIapp/WebHome

-- MartinCleaver - 11 Jul 2003

Thank you Martin. I wanted to clean a little bit before inviting you all to WebHomeWarming party wink So please come in, site name is "FAQ Farm" and I plan to host there couple FAQ/Best practices wiki for couple other projects I am involved in (or can host one for you if you'll ask me wink ). Site uses SimpleSkin, CommentPlugin and you can also visit http://twiki.med.yale.edu/twiki2/bin/view/Farm/WebHome to wiki about site usability.

Here I said it! I used wiki as a verb wink

-- PeterMasiar - 13 Jul 2003

There is Perl certification wiki - http://perlcert.addnorya.com/ - and it's a KwikiWiki.

-- PeterMasiar - 14 Jul 2003

A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy by Clay Shirky - Required reading for anybody concerned with the online communities in the long term, both developers and users. Bookmark this article. Save a local copy. Periodically re-read it.
There a many ideas in there which I think we would do well to explore. Several issues which have been coming to a head here on twiki.org are mentioned together with pointers as to how we might best weather them. I'll refrain from mentioning which ones right now because I don't want to prejudice your interpretation of what is relevant and important.

Follow up in OurOwnWorstEnemy.

-- MattWilkie - 15 Jul 2003

Just a quick thank you to the people who have made TWiki over the years. I started an internal deployment as a "social experiment" last fall in our company. Adoption within the engineering community has spread quickly. The most profound benefits have been the increased cooperation amongst our distributed colleagues. I appreciate all of your work and have a queue of plugin modifications that should creep into twiki.org soon.

-- BradDixon - 16 Jul 2003

Many months back PeterThoeny suggested that we revisit the CodevWorkFlow - perhaps change webforms and so on to match. For various reasons some people have become bogged down on the idea of not using Codev to discuss ideas relating to Code Development. I suspect that these frustrations really stem down to similar causes that led to PeterThoeny's original point of restructuring the work flow . Meanwhile the suggestion was raised that better use of TWiki's webforms would help - both originally and recently.

In an attempt to try and help I've created a TWiki Application that is designed to be a "model" Codev-web. Currently it's unpopulated (needs some test data). I am not saying it's necessarily suitable for the Codev web - that's not my place to say. I am interested in what other developers opinions of it is though - I've often thought that despite people's reservations regarding the development process it DOES produce something very useful at the end of it, and is essentially a very lightweight process. Hence my interest in packaging up "Codev" as an addon application. Hence my interest in hearing opinions on whether the refactor is "good".

Rather than duplicate pointers everywhere I'll just invite people to skip to the bottom part of PleaseCreateNewCategories and if interested to take a look and provide feedback in the usual TWiki Way. I should really talk about this in the Plugins web since it's an addon, but the reason I'm not is the relevance to TWiki's development process. (For example documentation development has equal standing to bug fixes & feature development - something people who don't code can contribute to)

Thanks! And now I'll let you return to your coffee & cake smile

-- MichaelSparks - 17 Jul 2003

The TWikiUnixInstaller now works under Linux/Apache & Windows (cygwin/apache). Feedback from other Unix systems very welcome. Don't be too surprised if it breaks, but feedback is welcome to improve it further. People using Linux/cygwin should be able to do installations in a very short time period now. For those interested in playing with the CVS version the installer can use a TWikiAlphaRelease tar ball made from the buildAlphaRelease.sh script attached to that page. (At some point an enhanced installer will include this to allow an install of the most recent TWiki version)

Minor caveat for experienced TWiki admins - this installer enforces data and code separation, but does not yet support an install revolving around TWiki's traditional data and code tangling.

-- MichaelSparks - 20 Jul 2003

I'm attempting to use twiki to collaboratively write .pod files. One edits an embedded pod, and it is appears automagically pod2html'ed, and a diff is provided against a CVS reference copy. But pod text naturally doesn't follow twiki formatting conventions. Tabs are explicitly allowed. So... it looks like I am going to try a global query replace for \t in the TWiki code. Any thoughts?

-- MitchellNCharity - 21 Jul 2003

Beware that things will break quite dramatically in terms of normal pages. (" * this" gets turned into "\t* this" and so on in the on-disk storage.) Suggestions/options:

  • Consider doing something compatible with PerlDocPlugin
  • Modify to include a "format" or "markup" field? This could allow you to "flip" the way twiki deals with those pages based on the content. May or may not be a good option.
  • Create a modified verbatim style setup ? Maybe <verbatim type="pod"> where you pass processing out over to a plugin for rendering?

Expect resistance if you change the on-disk format - hence the suggestion above. However the on-disk format has changed in the past, and has generally been accepted where necessary - as long as migration is transparent/easy for admins. (transparent is best) I'd be interested at tangling TWiki docs with pydocs so I'd find it interesting to see what you do here.

-- MichaelSparks - 21 Jul 2003

Thanks for the suggestions. I ended up doing a "quick hack" workaround, as the wiki is a minimum-resource experiment to see if a community forms. I changed tabs to formfeeds in the code, data, and template files (\t in bin/ and lib/, actual tabs in data and template). Formfeed was chosen as a less valuable character which still matches \s. The result seems to still be working. Formfeeds sometimes leak out (eg, in email). And it would have been nice to preserve formfeeds as well as tabs (the pods have both). So not the right thing. But satisficing. Thanks again.

-- MitchellNCharity - 22 Jul 2003

A co-worker gave me the heads-up this morning about an NPR story last night about wikis! Here's the link to the page where you can pick your streaming media format-of-choice. Look out, the mainstream is discovering wikis!

-- LynnwoodBrown - 22 Jul 2003

Thanks for the link Lynnwood. I've saved the piece as mp3 to put in my toolbox for HowToGetInternalBuyInForTWiki. I'll send it out as a primer before I go desk hopping to give hands on demos.

-- MattWilkie - 23 Jul 2003

SourceForge's web-based CVS interface, which people use for CVS:bin/view and friends, is currently not up to date with the CVS repository, by up to 24 hours. This is only an issue for links to recently updated code, but if that's the case you'll need to install a real CVS client and download TWiki that way (see TWikiAlphaRelease and CvsReadme), or wait a bit for an overnight TWikiAlphaRelease or for the web-based CVS to update.

-- RichardDonkin - 30 Jul 2003

Original Twiki costume available on ebay...

-- TWikiGuest - 30 Jul 2003

Does anyone know anything about MichaelSparks removing his contributions from twiki.org? The most explanation I've seen is in TWikiUnixInstaller but I couldn't understand whether it was a problem with twiki and GPL or his contributions.

Addition: I'm guessing LicensingAndCopyrightFAQ and LicensingAndCopyrightDiscussions have something to do with this.

-- SamHasler - 06 Aug 2003

A brief synopsis:

  1. MichaelSparks rescinded the NamedIncludeSections patch (among others) citing "...since there's been zero comment on this feature I assume it's rejected. I'm changing the status to FeatureNotSuitable"
  2. shortly thereafter PeterThoeny included Micheal's patch into cvs TWikiAlphaRelease, presumably attempting to demonstrate the patch was not rejected, just not dealt with yet. "Please don't be too quick in changing requests to rejected."
  3. Michael then raised the point, in a reasoned manner, that inclusion of explicitly rescinded code was in effect breaking copyright. "I had thought the banner across the top & request for it not to be merged was sufficient."
  4. ...a small happening that I can't recall at the moment...
  5. a Michael started TWikiOrgInBreachOfGPL, which by the way is not exactly about point #3 though it is related
  6. the breach of GPL discussion got heated, civility unravelled. At this point Michael starting removing all of his contributions from all of Codev - speech as well as code.

  7. Alarmed, Peter temporarily denied Michael and anonymous write access to Codev web and asked that discussion continue on the developers mailing list, which it is. Michael expressed understanding to being denied write access, while pointing out that he took care to remove only his own comments.
  8. on Aug 6 (today) all of Micheal's recent edits have been removed, presumably by Peter. e.g. the topics have been restored to their pre-blowout state.

Events 1 thru 3 are detailed in CairoRelease beginning about 05-Jul-2003

It should be noted that the GPL flame war died down very quickly and the ad hominem comments removed and apoligized for almost immediately, within hours. However Michael was already committed to his course.

While his actions have been dramatic and impassioned, at all times Michael's communications have been reasoned and civil, if not altogether polite. With one quickly recinded exception, so has everybody else.

I personally believe it was a mistake to so quickly roll-back Michael's retractions. Or, to be more precise, I don't think it right that this portion of the history is not recorded except in the minds of those who were here at the time. The retractions as well as the roll-backs should be recorded in the Diffs.

-- MattWilkie - 06 Aug 2003

Correction: "it was the NamedIncludeSections specifically that was included without authorisation and againts my express wishes. -- MichaelSparks"

-- MattWilkie - 06 Aug 2003

The steps Matt outlined are more or less accurate. I will get back to Michael's claims shortly, after I finish my homework on this subject. (Time lost for more productive things I could do for the CodevCommunity)

I as the site administrator have the right (and IMO duty) to recover content from damage. No offense to Michael, but I consider his action as damage. This is because removing speech (also if done for one contributor only) brings other content out of context. Please note that I did not recover the three topics that contain exclusive code contributions by the author.

I would like to see Michael back in Codev, and Michael demonstrated interest and support. Michael and I are in e-mail conversation working out details. As soon as Michael and I feel comfortable I will remove the lockout. I am convinced that this will be the case soon.

-- PeterThoeny - 07 Aug 2003

For those who didn't have the time to read and absorb the lengthy A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy by Clay Shirky (see my earlier post above) the original wiki has a one screen pithy version Wiki:CommunityLifeCycle. It's a little simplistic (hey it's only five paragraphs), missing that a community can recirculate through the middle stages a numnber of times, but it works.

Where are we and how does that understanding change our actions?

-- MattWilkie - 07 Aug 2003

It's a Wiki Matt - change it! (Too late, I did). Finally we have got to acceptance that we have a problem. Hooray, I am truly glad. Our challenge now is to renew by working our way around the loop again, this is going to take effort. Exertion of effort mandates the anticipation of reward - we need to spend the next few weeks making process changes here at TWiki.org so we can best utilise the skills of all the people who want to contribute; not just at the coding and usability sides but also with regard to the architecture and process management aspects as well.

-- MartinCleaver - 09 Aug 2003

I'll shortly be going offline for a few weeks. Has anybody ever been to Oaxaca City, Mexico and vicinity? (or better yet live there? I'd love to meet a twikier face to face) Any must-see/do recommendations? Comments to Sandbox.OaxacaCity.

-- MattWilkie - 10 Aug 2003

          .----.
         /  _   \
         |=[_]==|     _
 (`.__.--.____.---.__/ )
  `.___./<o><o>'\\___.'
        |  /.  .||
         \:-: .'
          `-'

Matt, have a great vacation in sunny Mexico!

-- PeterThoeny - 10 Aug 2003

I contend that Michael was perfectly within his rights to revoke his statements and patches and that this reversal was a final act to make his frustration felt. I have considered - and still reserve the right - to do the same but am hoping that we can work things through.

I also understand that subsequent to the long email conversations Michael has had with Peter, John and Richard that they resolved the matter, yet Michael has not been given access to Codev again. What a waste - what do you think Michael can do now that you've taken away his freedom to speak here? The CoreTeam says they are concerned about promoting teamwork, Michael says on TWikiIRC that they have resolved the issues. If its not resolved we all lose some great contributions that have been the only true movement we've seen in the code base since BeijingRelease.

If the core team contend that the situation has not been resolved, please say so.

-- MartinCleaver - 13 Aug 2003

Extending Martin's argument would you mind if I removed some of my code from the core of TWiki? I think not. The notice in ReadmeFirst is now clear, but over a year ago it was:

  • The CoreTeam considers all contributions to include in the main TWiki distribution. However, we will not accept all of them: some contributions might not fit the typical use of TWiki; other contributions might need some more work before we can include them. Details can be discussed on your contribution topic.

I think it was clear that contributations to Codev were intended for the core. Now there was certainly a mis-understanding over one of Michael enhancements that he explicity didn't want in the core, but otherwise he now wants to withdraw contributions. I can see why people think this should be allowed, but his withdrawl will affect the context of topics and hence also other peoples' contributions. Where his contributions are in the core, we lose some of the documentation, also not desirable.

Concerns over free speech are of course valid. But, we have to consider the consequences of allowing contributers to have free reign in withdrawing past contributions.

-- JohnTalintyre - 13 Aug 2003

I agree with JohnTalintyre that contributions to the text of the pages, or attached patches, should not be deleted. Once posted, it's public and "owned" by community. One can refactor the page and remove his signatures, but deleting whole contribution is almost like vandalizing or stealing from the community.

But Michael's concern were not taken into account IIUC (I was on vacation last week and have only partial understanding what happened) and even worse, his right to edit pages was still not restored (IIUC he agreed not delete anything else, and even restore what he removed). So what might be a reason to still deny edit privileges to Michael?

-- PeterMasiar - 13 Aug 2003

It looks to me like Michael has gone belly-up and totally given in to Peter's demands and additionally offered much more, despite his personal disagreement with those demands. He has offered a win-win solution at a sacrifice to himself. What more could one ask for? Still this has not achieved a resolution. There's nothing more that Michael can do now. It's someone else's turn.

The issue of removing items in dispute is a furfy. Nothing gets permanently removed and we all know it. If ownership is in dispute, temporary removal is appropriate. To see it as any more than that smells of blaming the victim.

Michael's negotiation skills stayed strong despite his obvious upset. I think Peter could learn from his example and bend a bit too, no matter who is right or wrong. Emotions are inevitable. Good men feel them but separate them from the facts, avoiding the rigid thinking that comes from fear.

As a potential contributor I can't help wondering what I will do when I find myself in a similar situation. I don't give in as easy as Michael. For now I'm wondering whether to set up my own little site and point people there, until things become clearer around here. That's undesirable, but maybe inevitable. It's not the issues at hand that worry me so much as they way they are being dealt with.

If you hold something too tight, you lose it. I fear TWiki is about to lose much more than it tried to retain. If you hold something too tight, you lose it.

-- SueBlake - 13 Aug 2003

Michael's concerns are being dealt with, but it takes time. Please have the grace to allow Peter to deal with this - as it is he is having to devote a lot of time to this issue. It's not a question of permanent removal - for practical purposes it is the most recent version of a topic that matters, this can negatively affect the meaning and usefulness of Codev.

I'm not a particularly active contributer at present, but hope to do more again. To me it isn't Peter's actions that put me off, but some Codev member being too quick to "have a go" at the CoreTeam and Peter in particular. Please let's all calm down and allow a bit of time for these issues to be dealt with. Big issues can't be solved quickly.

-- JohnTalintyre - 13 Aug 2003

I communicated earlier that the lockout for Michael was temporarily and I suggested him to address the community in twiki-dev which he did.

MichaelSparks wrote in twiki-dev on 13 Aug 2003:

> You've stated that my position was extreme, and asked me not to remove
> content. I have stated to all of you that I am not going to do so out of
> respect for non-Peter core team members and the rest of the community. (as
> well as the total futility aspects)

This is the answer I was waiting for to invite Michael back into Codev, the lock-out is removed. I did not buy into his previous statement of "I am unlikely to do this [again]".

May I ask the community to contribute with WikiRefactoring in mind. The CodevCommunity, the CoreTeam (including myself) would like to see TWiki and the community advance amicably.

Statements like "I have considered - and still reserve the right - to revoke patches" concern me deeply, this can be a serious threat to the TWiki community and the TWiki project unless proven otherwise. How do other OpenSource projects handle this? The LicensingAndCopyrightDiscussions need to be worked out, then reflected in LicensingAndCopyrightFAQ and ReadmeFirst. This is to avoid confusion among contributors and users. I appreciate Michael's contributions and his recent BSD/FDL offer. Multiple licensing schemes have some implications which need to be looked at before we add code/docs with additional licenses.

Now, if you want to help out in the interim and make TWiki move faster see AppealToCodevCommunityByCoreTeam.

-- PeterThoeny - 13 Aug 2003

Never say, never again...

Since there's some overlap above between what Peter says above and what he wrote in twiki-dev (why isn't twiki-dev publicly archived BTW?) I'll copy parts of my response to this here:

I scribbled: > As you can expect I have been angry, with what you would expect I would
> feel is justifiable reasons. I have felt hurt and betrayed at times.
>
> Likewise I understand that my actions in response to yours may well have
> made you feel much the same way. I have tried to de-escalate things,
> perhaps not perfectly, but that's life. Sometimes suck at words do I.
>
> If I didn't make it clear enough then its my responsibility to try and
> ensure in future that it is clear enough.

I still feel that contributors must have the rights I've stated, but for the sake of peace I've effectively revoked my right to exercise those rights. This was based on seeing http://www.greencheese.org/FrontPage and realising how many problems it solves. As one person put it over the past few days - users should have this as a final act, and Peter should have the ability he exercised recently as a final act and neither side should exercise those rights.

I'd just like to say "thanks" to those who've understood the situation over the past few days and been supportive (even if they've not supported all my actions - they're not all defensible). Now I need to go through and repair the damage that Peter missed.

In direct response to Peter's comment above though:

> How do other OpenSource projects handle this? ( threat of revoking of patches )

GNU projects require assignment of copyright for patches back to the FSF. Other projects require an explicit statement of license for patches, or declare an explicit license that patches that are made available must be licensed under an appropriate license. In python the developer community produce patches and enhancement proposals (like RFCS - common consensus and running code) and then vote on inclusion or not - as long as maintenance is "guaranteed". This seems to be a very, very effective manner of working.

In some countries and many situations assignment of copyright is not possible due to local legal systems. (For example, CopyrightDesignsAndPatentsAct in the UK, and I believe in Germany copyright cannot be assignd) This doesn't however preclude assignment of rights under the modified BSD license - which gives the project the same rights as the original author (except for the need to include a notice).

There is a separate freedom point here however: also accepting patches as BSD'd rather than assigning copyright leaves the patcher the ability to relicense the patches as GPL/MPL/LGPL/whatever to others should they wish. This is a rather important detail IMHO.

I know that Peter is being wary of this idea at present, but I think this offers him and the TWiki community the best options.

Furthermore as a small number of people are aware at present I am actively investigating options for the TWiki community to help move TWiki's development process forward. (And more importantly revitalise various aspects) Whether they're accepted & used isn't my decision - it's up to individuals to do that.

I'm waiting for feedback from Peter (for a few days...) before making this public. After all as I've said to Peter:

I scribbled: > However I fully understand that it is 99.9999% certain that whilst we
> disagree on what I think is a couple of small points that we actually both
> have the same aim - to make TWiki better for all.

Probably should $comment =~ s/99.9999%//; that above comment.

-- MichaelSparks - 13 Aug 2003

Well said Michael. You raise some good points, I'm sure they'll be feedback from Peter soon. I certaily like the idea of making the contributions situation more robust.

-- JohnTalintyre - 13 Aug 2003

What has happened to the Codev WebTopicList?

-- ArthurClemens - 14 Aug 2003

It's a side effect of inclusions pointing at the including web - TWiki.org must be running the latest alpha/beta. This is partially a regression to older style behaviour. (Pre Dec-2000 release IIRC - I remember having to change a bunch of templates to match the new templating system)

The problem is actually a knock on from the fact that the TOPICLIST declaration in WebTopicList doesn't say to make the links of the form $BASEWEB.$name rather than $name.

See: TopicsInIncludedLinkToIncludingWeb for details of the source of the problem

The update to the code tree was made on 2003-08-07. The original bug report related to the Dec2001 release - so this "feature" the bug fix fixes has been used by people for nearing 2 years now... (Making me wonder if it should be continued to be viewed as a bug, and if there should be a switch for people...)

- MichaelSparks - 14 Aug 2003

Adios Amigos! Talk to you again in a few weeks. Thanks for the picture PeterThoeny, but isn't it usually the one who goes away who sends the postcard? smile

-- MattWilkie - 18 Aug 2003

Matt: have a great vacation! Looking forward to seeing you back in Codev.

I was working behind the scenes on TWiki for the last few days, juggling priorities between my family (with an 8 year old daughter who is gifted in arts, and a 6 year old son who is exploring the world with lots of curiosity); a demanding day-time job; the changes announced in AppealToCodevCommunityByCoreTeam; cleaning up the recent confusions in Codev; working on the licensing questions; and finally some (little) sleep.

For TWiki, my priorities are to advance of the project quickly and bring the CodevCommunity back together. The result is what you see in today's DevelopersNews. I am interested in feedback on the first set of changes announced.

I am very pleased that ArthurClemens, ColasNahaboo and WalterMundt joined the CoreTeam. Fresh blood will revitalize our community. Watch out for more changes, stay tuned smile

-- PeterThoeny - 18 Aug 2003

I'd like to thank Peter for all the hard work he's put in since the start of TWiki, but particularly during the last month. I look forward to TWiki's continued forward progress.

-- NicholasLee - 18 Aug 2003

Congratulations people.

-- MichaelSparks - 18 Aug 2003

Hats off to Peter for enabling the start of these changes through. Congrats to ArthurClemens, ColasNahaboo and WalterMundt.

-- MartinCleaver - 18 Aug 2003

On a forward looking note - I've created a VisionsOfTWiki page - the idea (if anyone feels willing to contribute to it) is to have a place where anyone can add a short desciption of the their visions of TWiki's future. Not all futures are compatible, but I believe all have equal merit. I've started it with the hope that it gives the existing and new core team members extra ideas as to where to push the boundaries. Not an official page of course, but hopefully a bit of useful fun smile

Drop in on it if you'd like to share your vision of where you'd like TWiki to go. No point complaining 4 years from now that we don't have the javary widgetery doodah with .net web services integration of TWiki on your Pocket PC with Linux compatibility layer based PDA auto-sync'd with automatic user friendly in-background upgrades doesn't happen if you don't say it now..

Something fun, but hopefully useful - much like how I describe TWiki to people smile

-- MichaelSparks - 18 Aug 2003

All my greetings to the CoreTeam and the CodevCommunity. A little feedback from my website : http://www.coosys.com (still in french ...)

-- BenoitFauvel - 20 Aug 2003

Here's something to chew on regarding skins.

There's a general design meme propagated by newsprint-to-web sites (and this is a discussion as old as tables and frames) that web pages should have a "right panel, center text, left panel" format (plus often a header panel & footer panel). This is fine for pages where the lengths (height) of the panel and text are equal. However the text of a page (the real content) is usually much longer than the panel text. The result is wasted screen space on both right & left sides; often each panel is 20% of the screen width, resulting in only 60% usable real content width.

So this is a conversation to those writing skins: think beyond the "right + center + left" mentality handed down by print-publication. The web is not print. The best design may be a non-panelled design. Give me back my screen width.

-- JonathanCline - 22 Aug 2003

One reason to do this (put the content text in a table) is to prevent that text lines become too wide to read comfortably. Plus commercial sites have a need to place diverse links as advertisements, endorsements, related links and so on somewhere, and a logical place for this is at the right side of the content. Also photos often have a fixed width and need to fit in a grid. You seldom see examples of fluid design here. But that the text just runs straight down in one column (thereby 'waisting space') is actually quite convenient while reading - it allows to scan the text running through the column, it gives you a sense of continuity.

But a wiki site is more than reading - it can be seen as a tool, much like a word processor. You adjust your own tool as you are comforable working with it, and you often maximize your screen when working with Word or Photoshop. You work for longer ends with this one tool, and you just adjust the screen if you need to copy notes from another application.

I am quite for fluid design, but actually it depends on your local situation - do your wiki users edit or do they just read? Does the corporate house style allow for flexible layout? How if any do pictures fit in?

-- ArthurClemens - 22 Aug 2003

Re: "One reason to do this (put the content text in a table) is to prevent that text lines become too wide to read comfortably."

IME, most browsers do a better job of preventing lines from becoming too wide to read comfortably when the the text is free to wrap to the width of the browser window. Then I can set the width of the browser window to a comfortable line width for me, considering whatever font size I may have "forced" using a local CSS or the accessibility settings of the browser.

Tables interfere with the ability for text to wrap to the (current) width of the window. (Some details of how text wraps to the width of the window vary depending on the browser. Good browsers, IMHO, do an excellent job in that even if some long lines are tagged with <pre> or <verbatim> so they cannot wrap, the other text on the page can wrap and does wrap at the width of the window (as long as tables are not involved). (konqueror even wraps long lines tagged with <pre> or <verbatim> (I can't recall which), which is extra nice.

-- RandyKramer - 23 Aug 2003

A recent entry of a blog I follow, Mamamusings, was titled why i still hate wikis. It sums up quite understandable pains of working on a large public wiki. Felt I had to come up with a counter-example.

It?s increasingly clear to me, too, that the specific wiki implementation used makes a big difference. I know socialtext has addressed some of the problems I?m talking about, and it sounds as though Twiki may have done so, as well.

Mission succeeded!

-- ArthurClemens - 25 Aug 2003

    > Mission succeeded!
    You sure? That sounds to me like saying that winning the battle is winning the war.

      • The categorically rejection of wiki sites as usable tool in general, that is. -- ArthurClemens - 26 Aug 2003
        • I stand corrected - that is mission succeeded wink smile -- TWikiGuest - 26 Aug 2003
    The problems that poster describes with Wiki's seems rife in the Codev web - that poster only describes the problems however with just 700 pages, not the 2000+ in Codev:
     
    The pie/echo/atom wiki doesn't have that, and trying to architect that structure after the fact, when there are 700+ pages in various stages of completion or abandonment, is a headache. smile

    Sounds exactly the same as the Codev web, and this is despite this comment being fairly true for the Codev web:
    > I think that if a wiki starts out from the very beginning with someone who's vested in keeping it organized, it's far more usable for the long term.

    After all, the Codev web operates far more like an email list these days really - just with a worse interface, rather than as a Wiki. (How many refactor? How many encourage document mode - it's not difficult to encourage people into after all - even if it's not perfect.)

    I think Matt's original idea of having a RandomTopicPlugin is probably a good idea on this front - since the real problem being described is dead wood pages - not just bad structure. Incidentally - many people have suggested an Amazon-esque solution to this - not many people know but in the case of the web, studies have been done that show that random selection is almost as good as non-random selection for encouraging discussion. On the flip side, I'd hardly say that unreadable text less than 2mm high counts a good solution that's going to work long term for everyone as an organisational method for encouraging discussion - if you can't read it, it's worthless.

    -- TWikiGuest - 26 Aug 2003

Regarding page style again:

The vision for the web is to have the client browser perform all formatting, using client-side css, if/when necessary. The server side is supposed to contain minimal, if any, statically-defined formatting markup. As mentioned, different clients will use different types of formatting, for different situations or even different physical devices. Users should be able to put their browser into different styles (i.e. apply different css).

At least if tables had user-adjustable widths (like frames), or docking buttons, or minimization-to-icon, it would be tolerable. But to waste 20% of the screen width on "white" when that short column runs out of text is just poor design. I looked through css to find some kind of "bounding box" for this reason: not just a width, but width and height, so at least the silly nav box won't run on forever. But I didn't find anything on my cursory glance.

Typical example: http://finance.yahoo.com/?u All the "content" is squeezed in the middle 15% of the screen! With "long content" like http://biz.yahoo.com/mu/update.html, the entire left side of the screen is a blank grey box. Anyway, y'all got the point, I'm sure.

-- JonathanCline - 26 Aug 2003

History flow, visualizing dynamic, evolving documents and the interactions of multiple collaborating authors: a preliminary report, an IBM research project on the visualization of Wikipedia pages. Nice looking pictures, and probably a handy tool too, as it gives visual, intuitive feedback about wiki page development in time.

-- ArthurClemens - 27 Aug 2003

Jonathan, you can't get bounding box properties. You probably need a CSS div with a float property. Take for instance http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ - the body text flows around the navigation box at the right. From the code:

#menu{border-left:1px solid #000;border-bottom:1px solid #000;float:right;padding:10px;width:160px;margin:0px 0px 10px 10px;background-color:#eee}

Is this what you mean?

  • Yes, right on. It's not possible with tables or frames for sure. Is float the key word here? -- JonathanCline - 05 Sep 2003
    • Yes. float:right and float:left. The text will flow around the div box, until you use a clear:[left/right/both].

-- ArthurClemens - 03 Sep 2003

IBM has recently started showing an outstanding TV advert about Linux - I liked it so much that I created a page about the advert, where you can see the ad, read transcripts, etc. I think it expresses a lot about why OpenSource projects such as TWiki are worth participating in.

-- RichardDonkin - 05 Sep 2003

"Poetry. There's not much glory in poetry...only achievement"
"Speak your mind, don't back down".

-- TWikiGuest - 06 Sep 2003

Interesting little article about creating a XHTML and CSS layout for a wiki: http://a.wholelottanothing.org/archives.blah/007391

-- ArthurClemens - 08 Sep 2003

I started to tweak SimpleSkin with CSS. You can see results at CGI::App wiki. I added a nifty feature to AdminTools - display CSS stylesheet, which is symlinked. Of course not on twiki.org - see it on my site. (Not all forums have logo yet).

-- PeterMasiar - 12 Sep 2003

  1. Can anyone tell me when the searchmeta template is used/called?
  2. Please note Michael's changes to this page.

-- ArthurClemens - 13 Sep 2003

  1. This is used in parent and rename meta data search, see TWiki::handleMetaSearch
  2. 'gentle banter' removed... -- RD

-- PeterThoeny - 14 Sep 2003

FYI: I helped to transform my spouse's site to twiki. It uses an almost empty template, and the different styles on each page are created by styles defined (overridden) in each topic. The twiki aspect is not for collaboration, just for easy online editing, easy linking and generating of Recent changes and Search.

  • you should add this to NiceSite (I tried but keep getting timeouts....)

-- ArthurClemens - 14 Sep 2003

Hi Folks. It's very encouraging to see the amount of positive new discussion and development going on in the last month (even if it means I'm having a heck of a time catching up!). It's especially good to see Andreas and Walter active again.

Go team go!

-- MattWilkie - 16 Sep 2003

Yes, Codev is picking up again after the confusion we had in the summer. A good thing, making (almost?) everyone happy smile

I moved older posts to the CoffeeBreakArchives (using a version that preserves the original posts).

I appreciate MichaelSparks' contributions over the years, he helped tremendously in advancing TWiki. Without his help and insight TWiki would not be where it is now. Over the last few month Michael and I had some disagreements which lead to some unfortunate feelings and actions. I did not defend my position loud enough with the intent to bring peace to the Codev community. This might have been interpreted as me being arrogant. It was never my intent to hurt Michael's feelings, in case I did I want to apologize sincerely to him. It is Michael's wish to not participate further in the TWiki development. I wish Michael well in his future endeavors and thank him again for the countless hours he devoted to TWiki.

We are making good progress and are moving along slowly but surely with the steps outlined in AppealToCodevCommunityByCoreTeam. More to come soon smile

-- PeterThoeny - 21 Sep 2003

For anyone wanting very cheap high-end virtual server hosting, Dreamhost have an offer whereby their $80 a month hosting package is going for just $9.95 a month... Sign up today (click here), 24th Sept 2003, if you're interested.

I use Dreamhost for my site, http://donkin.org/, and they are pretty good - see TWikiOnWebHostingSites for a review. The link above is a referral link (helps pay for my hosting) but I'd recommend them anyway, and DreamhostSetupNotes helps you get TWiki installed easily smile

-- RichardDonkin - 24 Sep 2003

Peter's words are completely hollow and lack sincerity. I have been trying to remove my name from TWiki.org now for weeks (literally) and every time I remove my name the page is reverted. He does not care about anyone's feelings other than his own, and I am utterly disgusted and ashamed to be associated with him. (This is the reason I am removing my name)

Quite why he would wish to be associated with me is beyond me.

I would ask that any contributor that edits a page, if my name is on that page you have both my permission, to remove my name, and if you do so I owe you a favour.

I'll be forwarding this request to the twiki-dev mailling list as well, since clearly this edit will be deleted shortly since it conflicts with Peter Thoeny's viewpoint.

-- MichaelSparks - 26 Sep 2003

Michael, clearly we have disagreements, and that has influenced our community in a negative way. Part of that blame is certainly on me. I think everyone would like to continue with fun brainstorming, spec, programming and documentation. Has the time finally arrived where the flame wars end? If it is not for me it is for the CodevCommunity. Life goes on...

-- PeterThoeny - 26 Sep 2003

Life does indeed go on. If you will cease putting my name back onto pages, you won't hear a peep out of me. In the meantime, at a slow rate, occasionally, you will see pages pop to the top of webchanges with a name removed. If my contributions have been useful in the past, and you are truly sorry for pissing me off, then them appearing at the top occasionally should not bother you since they might stimulate discussion - in the same way that renaming the page with my installer on stimulated discussion. (If people can be bothered to fight past your performance issues arising from your decision to ignore hosting offers from several people - which it seems that many people cannot be bothered with at present)

Heck I would've thought at the current 3-4 updates a day having a few extra edits bouncing near the top stimulating people's ideas might help you. It's not damaging the content, it leaves you with contributions, and the name is in the RCS log if anyone is truly curious. Anonymous posters at most wikis (eg c2.com) - ie signatureless - are common. Quite why you have such a big problem with this I don't know, and don't care. You seem to have major problems with free speech as far as I can tell, especially given your distribution of TWiki still isn't GPL compliant - but then we know you're never going to bother addressing all those concerns so I'll leave it at that.

-- MichaelSparks - 26 Sept 2003

Michael, it's a great shame you can't respond to Peter's positive statements with some grace. Yes, things are happening more slowly than you like, but they're happening. Personally I'd rather read interesting topic contributions, rather than see changes log full of you removing content, even if removing your name is only a minor change.

-- JohnTalintyre - 26 Sep 2003

Can someone comment on the origins of the current twiki variable syntax: %VARNAME{args}%

I'm curious because other than ad hoc reasons, I think there are other syntax definitons which would be easier to type and/or would still allow variables/methods. The current syntax is heavy on markup to use in a wiki. And as discussed elsewhere there are other issues too (namespace, etc).

-- JonathanCline - 30 Sep 2003

It might be harder to type. The idea was to:

  • make it unlikely that there is a name clash with other syntax:
    %VARNAME{ "value" name1="val1" name2="val2" }%
  • make it easily translateable to XML:
    <varname name1="val1" name2="val2"> value </varname>

-- PeterThoeny - 30 Sep 2003

I would very much like a variable syntax which is easier to type.

-- MattWilkie - 30 Sep 2003

John recently added an InterestedParties field to the WebForm.

I added a Show me topics of interest Favorites icon to the web list on top to easily access one's favorites, e.g. those topics where your name is listed in the InterestedParties field. There is one "gotcha": You need to be logged in, e.g. have edited a page recently.

A graphics icon is unusual for the default TWiki templates. Is this OK? I will remove it if the majority does not see a value in this link.

  • A graphic icon is OK if you put a descriptive title tag with it, so a mouse over will reveal the meaning. This is something all icons should do in Twiki, but that is for another time. -- AC - 01 Oct 2003

Another useful link would be a link for "recent changes where my name is somewhere mentioned in the topic".

  • Yes, a lot of people currently have a search for this on their Main page. So there definitely is a need for this. I think it is useful to have one overview of all contributions in all webs. -- AC - 01 Oct 2003
    • I concur. -- MC

-- PeterThoeny - 01 Oct 2003, -- AC (-- ArthurClemens) - 01 Oct 2003

It's a neat feature (although I do dislike icons as a rule).

What I really want is a 'login' button to force me to authenticate. This would be useful for not only your interested parties search but also for my 'WIKIWEBLIST' replacement on my home page that allows me to switch between WebChanges views instead of WebHome views. (Courtesy of MS).

-- MartinCleaver - 01 Oct 2003

I too like the feature. I'm not sold on the icon (although space is at a premium) and definately don't think it belongs where it is at the moment. Perhaps put it at the end of the list until Arthur has the time to get to this part of the redesign process.

Thanks for the idea of personalising WIKIWEBLIST Martin. I hadn't thought of that. (yay! something I can do for myself and not have to wait for a real developer to get into the game. : -)

-- MattWilkie - 01 Oct 2003

Please note that I made a small change to WebRssBase. See ChangesDontShowUpInRSS.

-- ArthurClemens - 02 Oct 2003

I find plugin development to be very painful due to the difficulty of debugging. Can anyone share their method of twiki-testing? Currently this is how I go about it:

  1. create a huge test topic of tests (for each combination of features)
  2. make a couple small changes in the plugin code
  3. reload the test topic, look for render errors
  4. lather, rinse, repeat

Since my perl is continually rusty (I dont write it that often) I sometimes have syntax errors, which make the plugin completely fail without warning or error (guess it doesn't load the .pm). If I'm lucky, the error is somewhat recoverable, and the warning is displayed in the page (carp'ed?). I assume running view from the command line might expose these errors better.. but maybe not.

As a last debugging resort I sometimes revert to commenting out whole sections of plugin to find what sub is causing the problem, or printing out debug strings which I continually append to and somehow dump into the rendering.

Anyway this is not conducive to rapid development so ideas are appreciated. Some of the trial and error is necessary, 'cause that's just how regexes are sometimes.

-- JonathanCline - 11 Oct 2003

The problem can be eased with:

  1. changing the first lines to turn on warnings (include the '-w' flag):
    • #! /path/to/perl -w
  2. adding subsequent lines to
    • use strict; # ensure variables are declared
    • use diagnostics; #tell me what I am doing wrong

At a minimum, this should go in the template.

A better approach is for someone knowledgeable to define an Object Oriented base class which captures all the mechanics. See the PerlOOGuide.

-- MartinCleaver - 11 Oct 2003

One simple trick is to run perl -c Yourplugin.pm to get a syntax check only ('compile' the file without running it).

-- RichardDonkin - 11 Oct 2003

there's also DebuggingTWikiAndPlugins and PerlPtkdb

-- WillNorris - 17 Oct 2003

For those who live in the San Francisco Bay Area: I give a TWiki presentation for the Peninsula Linux Users' Group (PenLUG) in the Oracle campus in Redwood Shores tonight on 23 Oct 2003.

My upcoming presentation is for the Silicon Valley Linux User Group (SVLUG) at Cisco in San Jose, CA on 07 Jan 2004.

I also applied for a talk at the Linux World in New York in January and it got accepted smile Stay tuned for more details.

-- PeterThoeny - 23 Oct 2003

OpenOffice.org has released final v1.1 and with it, an SDK for plugins & s/w dev.

The oo native file format is xml, so conversion between ooo <-> twiki text shouldn't be difficult for someone with sufficient motivation.

Also, there is a mapi plugin for internet explorer which allows OOO to edit docs from inside the web browser.

I've been using OOO for a year now for developer level documentation and it works fine. There are some minor compatibility problems between word & oo-write (i.e. bullet lists look a bit different), but I've found excel & oo-calc to be very compatible, at least for the stuff I do.

-- JonathanCline - 28 Oct 2003

The Plugins are florishing well, we have now 99 Plugins listed. Hurry, who wants to post Plugin number 100? smile   What incentive shall we give to the person posting the next Plugin besides a virtual pat on the back?

BTW, I am busily preparing for the TWikiPresentation21Jan2004, Wiki Collaboration in the Corporate World, for LinuxWorld in New York, my deadline is Monday in a week. Send me an e-mail if you have some suggestions on what to cover. See abstract in http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/linuxworldny/V40/conference/session.cvn?eID=319

-- PeterThoeny - 08 Nov 2003

It did not take long, WillNorris posted IrcLogPlugin, the 100th Plugin on TWiki.org. This shows the added value the community gets with Plugins. Thanks all for the contributions, and please keep them coming smile

-- PeterThoeny - 09 Nov 2003

I don't know if this is the right place or not, but I need an interesting plugin. It may be easy, it may be impossible. What I want is a "TagTrackerPlugin". I know enough Perl to do that work, but I need a good description of callbacks into the Plugins. I poked around some and couldn't find that on the website.

Here's what I want, set a plugin keyword, hopefully something as simple as

%TAG%
, it will have two attributes, uid and number. The uid will be assigned by the plugin in a manner that is unique to that topic, probably a counter plus revision number. The number field will be a numbering, based on position in list. So what can be done with this is the list can be arbitrarily rearranged and it will auto-renumber. The uid once set will never change. External refs could use something like,
%REFTAG%
with an attribute of the page, and the uid. These would appear as the number assigned on the page. I need help and direction on creating this plugin.

-- ShawnGarbett - 10 Nov 2003

Regarding proliferation of plugins, there are multiple ways to look at that.

  1. It's great, people are contributing their extensions using a well-defined public api.
  2. It's a side effect of not being able to contribute to core source, thus the only way to distribute modifications is through plugins.
  3. It's a side effect of not having frequent core releases, thus the only way to add functionality between lengthy releases is through add-on modules which are released independently.

-- JonathanCline - 11 Nov 2003

Hmmm, something of a glass-half-empty view - IMO the plugin API and associated community of plugin developers is a huge advantage of TWiki. Expanding the core team to include the entire plugin community would not really work, of course, so a plugin API remains important even with a bigger CoreTeam. The current slow release cycle is something that the CoreTeam is aiming to rectify - the main issue is personal and work commitments that take time away from TWiki development.

It's interesting to use the recently released Open Source Maturity Model to assess TWiki (download the PDF for complete doc) - this is from Cap Gemini Ernst & Young, and enables anyone to assess an open source project. TWiki does well in some areas (plugin API is one of them) and not so well in others.

-- RichardDonkin - 14 Nov 2003

Interesting! Could we start a page to do a public evaluation?

-- MartinCleaver - 14 Nov 2003

If you do, it would be interesting to also do a public evaluation against this article as well.

-- MS - 16 Nov 2003

By all means create a page to do the evaluation.

As for the 2nd article - this seems more like a parody of Design Patterns than a set of anti-patterns that are really usable to assess TWiki. However, a couple of the Wiki:AntiPatterns listed might apply to TWiki.pm - there are far too many unrelated functions in there for it to be considered a well designed module at present, and of course a lot of global variables.

-- RichardDonkin - 16 Nov 2003

I would like to extract metadata into Xml Fragment. for that , I did the xmlfrag skin, just containing %TEXT% and the topic ReqTest5 containing

<ReqItem>
%SEARCH{ "ReqTest3"  scope ="topic" regex="on" nosearch="on" nototal="on" format="<TagId>$formfield(Sandbox.TagId)</TagId>"}% 
%SEARCH{ "ReqTest3"  scope ="topic" regex="on" nosearch="on" nototal="on" format="<ReqText>$formfield(Sandbox.ReqText)</ReqText>"}%
</ReqItem>

when ReqTest5?skin=xmlfrag&contenttype=xml/text , that gives

<ReqItem>
<TagId>IDfix</TagId> 
<ReqText>blablablazb</ReqText>
</ReqItem>

Presuming ReqTest3 contain

  
META:FORM{name="ReqTestForm"}%
META:FIELD{name="Sandbox.TagId" title="Sandbox.TagId" value="IDfix"}%
META:FIELD{name="Sandbox.ReqText" title="Sandbox.ReqText" value="blablablazb"}%


that seems so easy, so i cannot imagine nobody thought about it. So, what did you find as limits ? What were found as possible alternatives ? Secondly, It is aimed at being used to recompose a Larger Xml File, finally transformed into Docbook via XSLT. Again, WDYT ? And how can I access to a list of the available metainfo ( nonn standard, i mean) (I thought this approach may extract all the metainfo from a topic into a xmlfragment, which can be then be recombined at wish.)

testable in http://go.further.cc/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Sandbox/ReqTest5?skin=xmlfrag&contenttype=xml/text

-- LucAbom - 16 Nov 2003

Generating XML from TWiki content is easy. The WebRss and WebRssBase generate XML based on an embedded SEARCH. As you mentioned, extracing TWikiForms data is even easier. In your example you could combine the two searches into one to get better performance:

<ReqItem>
%SEARCH{ "ReqTest3"  scope ="topic" regex="on" nosearch="on" nototal="on" format="<TagId>$formfield(Sandbox.TagId)</TagId>$n<ReqText>$formfield(Sandbox.ReqText)</ReqText>"}%
</ReqItem>

-- PeterThoeny - 01 Dec 2003

Thanks Peter for your answer and your hint. Having said that, I'm stalled with agregating these fragment altogether, in a wiki Fashion . I' d like to have as much as wiki control as possible. What I mean is Ideally I would like to have some wiki Page where I put the Topics I'd lik to aggregate, that would pilot the extraction . A Bit like the Motorola TOC (TocPlugin) where the Webcontent play that role. Any Idea on that ?

Also, are there any References/ Examples on how to have form based entry look more like "data entry" screens ? should I do that with templates, or are there some more flexible ways to do that ? I have in mind for instance using a topic to render the Table, and fixed content, and Search to fill the data

-- LucAbom - 02 Dec 2003

Please welcome SvenDowideit as a new CoreTeam member. Sven, welcome aboard the TWiki Codev train smile

Speaking of trains, and off-topic, I am just coming back from a trip to Los Angeles with my family. Disney's new California Adventure park is an interesting place for families with kids. Unlike other parks offering mainly junk food, they have real restaurants with good food and wine. Recommended.

-- PeterThoeny - 01 Dec 2003

Congratulations Sven. I note you're down as improving installation & packaging. If you want to take the O'Wiki Unix Installer (cvs)and modify it and the code we use for building nightly releases of both the stable beta and chaos releases, please feel free. If you release the code with TWiki, please ensure you update your copyright statement in the packaging as required by the GPL. If you want access to the CVS tree on O'Wiki, as 2 other TWiki core members have just let me know - I'm running the chaos tree in wiki mode anyway - it'll make your job of adapting the installer (and hence not reinventing wheels) easier.

The installer does enforce data and code separation but that's just common sense anyway.

-- MS - 01 Dec 2003

Are these constant plugs for OWiki really necessary? Personally I have a lot more problem with this spamming than I do with getting the finer detail of the GPL right.

-- JohnTalintyre - 01 Dec 2003

What is spam for one person is excellent reminder about easy-to-install twiki (called Owiki smile ) for another person. Complex installation is recurring long term known problem which prevents twiki to gain more popularity. IMHO solving this sore should be applauded, not scoffed at. I do not care about inter-personal problems in CoreTeam or elsewhere. "Let the better code win" - is the rule in OpenSource, right? Installer is GPL - is it included in Twiki? Are technical reasons why not?

-- PeterMasiar - 02 Dec 2003

I am not "scoffing" at OWikiFork, I am objecting to spamming. I have no problems with OWikiFork being referenced from TWiki, I have no problems with the large base of code I have provided to TWiki appearing in OWikiFork (that is without condition, some parties to OWikiFork are less free with such rights; including statements, sometimes conflicting, about the installer).

I tried out the OWikiFork download link and got a strangely packaged TWiki. It's clearly still early days at OWikiFork, but interesting things going on; good luck with it - I'd just appreciate less blatant "advertising".

-- JohnTalintyre - 02 Dec 2003

  1. My view is that I would have always preferred to have not had to fork, and I continue to hope that TWiki can regularly take the best of what people see at http://Owiki.org.
  2. If you can point to any conflicting messages please let us know
  3. I intend to contribute to both efforts.
  4. I'll try to ensure that I let people know the advantages and disadvantages whenever the discussion comes up.

-- MartinCleaver - 03 Dec 2003

John - on the comments of spamming.

  1. If you view it as spam, I apologise. The only reason I mentioned it to Sven was as an offer of code. However I don't believe the TWiki core team are the only competent coders on the planet, so mentioning it here allows others to do the same thing as I offered Sven.
  2. The only reason I mention it at all is because I feel people here may be interested. Codev is more than just the core team. The feedback I get, and the fact the installer is the topic with amongst the most interest from readers of Codev (consistently in the top ten topics for the past 3 months) implies to me that it is of interest. Therefore offering to Sven the ability to use GPL code should he wish is a no-brainer - after all your user population are interested even if you are not.
  3. I make no money, profit or glory from O'Wiki - unlike spammers - nor would I wish to, it would detract from the reason for writing code. It's a wiki - a tool - not an end of itself, I no longer use my name here, nor there.
  4. You downloaded the legacy TWiki Installer as we discussed, not O'Wiki. Since you complained that the unmodified TWiki tar ball as packaged by TWiki.org does not list contributors to TWiki's project I have removed all links (I think) to that installer for now until you get round to resolving that issue. (See point 2, and the several hundred people who have downloaded it to install and run your code without hassle)
  5. The only reason I mention it here at all is to allow people who are frustrated with speed of releases to get hold of functioning code for merging into their codebases - this benefits you since you get feedback as to whether features are useful or not.

The concept of whether one person contributes to one project or the other strikes me as irrelevant - they're both GPL - as long as the trivial rules for compliance are adhered to contributing to one is contributing to both. You can either view it as a threat, or not a threat. Personally I don't care - I've tried contributing code back to the community via your methods - it doesn't work. I'm trying a different method of contributing back to the community.

Heck as I've said to someone recently regarding the status of the code:

    It's GPL'd and if TWiki.org wanted to copy the code, restamp the entire CHAOS tar ball TWiki Dakar release they could - as long as they stuck to the GPL's restrictions (If they ignored the work that went into it that might be irritating, but morally & legally they could do it). If they want to take the release mechanism and use that they could - the entire thing is in public CVS.

You can either view that as positive or negative. Heck TWiki could grab code from the linux kernel tree to do configuration - you'd get a nice curses, console, and X based config and install system - it's all GPL and known portable. Do I care? No. It's an offer of something that I know works, and works well.

Once again, if you view it as spamming, I apologise. Stating "this feature works and works well, and here's where you can grab the code implementing it" strikes me as positively useful feedback. Obviously, once again, I am wrong frown

-- MS - 03 Dec 2003

Michael, thanks for that response, I hope this means you will reduce the level of OWikiFork advertising on TWiki. You state above that interest in the installer is high; so no need to advertise it and OWikiFork here.

Let's please get back to the spirit of the GPL i.e. free software. In attitude I would say that TWiki is freer than your position (given endless statements demanding that TWiki change, objecting to code inclusion etc). That is not to say that copyright isn't important, it is, as:

  • Without valid Copyright the license can't be enforced
  • People may feel their Copyright has been taken from them without permission. As it happens, when I first submitted large amounts of code, I reflected on the Copyright showing just Peter. But, as my contribution was clear I was happy smile

Clearly difficult to get right; OWikiFork may be better in this regard than TWiki, but I don't think the solutions are as clear cut or universally agreed as you make out. I think the linking of CVS and comments to Codev topics gives lots of background to contributions and is a very powerful model.

-- JohnTalintyre - 03 Dec 2003

A point is made above about DataAndCodeSeparation. This states that this is just common sense. However, I believe debate in this topic to date has actually been about changes to directory structures and not separating code and data; as they are already separated in TWiki. It is about a different way of structuring data, routing by Web and not by data (topics) and pub (attachments). Both structures have pros and cons - there is no correct answer. It might be worth having TWiki configurable in this regard; but this could lead to confusion.

-- JohnTalintyre - 03 Dec 2003

having played irc tag with MichaelSparks (we're on opposite ends of the world, i'm going to resort to the 'impersonal' reply here :(.

Thanks for the reminder about your install script - I'm going to spend some time with it (and your docco) some time this month - but I want to do something that will work for the debian package, and for some other possibilities that neither of of has catered for before smile - As I consider the TWiki as an application server, and have done so for at least 4 years, I'm hoping to write a TWikiApplication that does most of the work. I don't know how i'll solve the not set up enough for browser access, but needing to serve pages but thats a problem for the future. For now I'm going to play around with DeleteAccount and use that to create a User.pm to allow the abstraction of Authentication systems.

-- SvenDowideit - 03 Dec 2003

Sounds good Sven.

-- JohnTalintyre - 03 Dec 2003

I hadn't thought of this until I saw it on another twiki; their edit link has two links, one for normal edit and one for forced-anon edit. Though I don't use twikiguest login on my intranet sites, I thought it was a neat idea. "Edit(anon)"

  • I'd like to do something like this, but reversed. Starting supposition: forced logins are evil (justification). I think the user experience should be like usemod wiki, no login just an option to set and remember who you are, with an optional password. I've got a similar setup on our intranet via WindowsInstallModNTLM. Now I want to do so "in the wild". -- MattWilkie - 09 Dec 2003

-- JonathanCline - 06 Dec 2003

A thought: do you also think it useful for the WebRss newsfeed, to add the last author name next to the topic title?

-- ArthurClemens - 08 Dec 2003

In TWikiDrawPluginDev CrawfordCurrie said today: "I've not been quite as active maintaining this plugin for a couple of reasons: .... 3. I'm not particularly convinced there's a broad requirement for this plugin." Considering this, is it worth changing TWikiInstallationForm to record what plugins have been installed so that we can get some idea of the size of user base for each plugin?

-- SamHasler - 09 Dec 2003

Oh, yes, pleeeeeeze.....

Further discussion on this topic moved to FeedbackFromInstallations

-- CrawfordCurrie - 09 Dec 2003

I have been looking for a perl app for in-browser reading of usenet-news, but failing miserably. Surely this app has to exist. Anyone? These are the requirements:

  • up-to-date support (i.e., not a script hacked out in 1999)
  • fetches nntp news (or just headers) from local/remote news server
  • parses Msg-ID for threading
  • renders header data to html (in bite-sized chunks, like 20 messages per html page, with prev and next buttons)
  • renders individual message data to html page (with prev in thread and next in thread buttons)
  • ultimately integratable into twiki plugin (of course)
    • ultimately rendering the usenet message with wiki rules

Has anyone seen a site which allows nntp newsreading via the web? Is the app written in perl? It's not like it's a difficult thing..

-- JonathanCline - 12 Dec 2003

Re web access to newsgroups - Newsportal is a PHP application, which is not what you want, but is relatively easy to modify and works quite well (our site uses it for internal newsgroups). I wrote an extension to this app that generates RSS output from newsgroups, which was not too hard - see Donkin:NewsportalRSS. You might find some way of calling PHP from Perl or vice versa - PHP can be run as a normal executable under Perl, but there may be nicer ways (didn't find any last time I looked though).

-- RichardDonkin - 14 Dec 2003

Regarding recent changes...

team and other contributors also hold copyrights. See list of contributors at http://TWiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiContributor"""

(Closest I could think of for a round of applause. smile )

BTW Suggestion: Add a branch for beta releases to the twiki project page on freshmeat & make announcements there. You will get more, interested & capable developers that way. (Dev branches are inherently more interesting to developers I find, where as release branches are often more useful)

-- MS - 19 Dec 2003

There has been recent surge in the number of new contributors to twiki.org (Welcome Aboard!) I'm curious as to what brought you (them) here as it the wave seem to start before the recent TWikiBetaRelease announcement. Somebody somewhere must be talking about us! :grin:

-- MattWilkie - 19 Dec 2003

As a TWiki community member who is sometimes amazed that we're able to manage social relations at all within the extreme low-context world of the Internet, I would just like to voice another HORRAY! for recent breakthroughs in understanding and communication. As a humble non-coding user, I am thrilled that MS is feeling more comfortable about potential contributions of his skilled coding and architectual insights. I also want to acknowledge Peter and the Core team for sticking with the discussions and inevitable growing-pains of the community. I assert that this is all indications of TWiki.org coming of age as a community and it excites me for what it portends for this best-wiki-and-next-generation-who-knows-what!

-- LynnwoodBrown - 22 Dec 2003

Ho Ho Ho! Merry Christmas!

-- MartinCleaver - 25 Dec 2003

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