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TWiki logo development

New Logos, 02 Oct 2005

TWiki and TWiki.org has a new logo: A big "T" in a speech bubble convenying working together, and a "collaborate with TWiki" tag line. See logo set at TWikiLogos.

T-logo-456x130-t.gif

A big thumbs up thumbs up to ArthurClemens and all who helped shape the new logo!

Logo Goals

The new logo ideally should:
  1. represent the TWiki project and the TWikiMission
  2. convey the message of collaboration, working together, community
  3. reflect communication (in writing, in talking)
  4. appeal to corporate decision makers
  5. appeal to 'grass-root' deployment (have T-shirt appeal, but not too frivolous to scare corporate decision makers)
  6. stand out if listed together with other logos
  7. easy to recognize, e.g. simple design
  8. easy to scale down, also to 16x16 favicon size
  9. convey the spontaneous and fun nature of wikis
  10. print nicely in grayscale and color
  11. ... (add)

Some of these requirements are contradicting, e.g. it might not be possible to incorporate all ideas.

Discussions

I have been playing with the heart theme (on paper), but all attempts resulted in yuk images. Finally today I found the match (probably after designing so many document icons) with folding paper and text balloon.

This is a first attempt. Doesn't mean to be final in color and whatever:

image TWiki_logo_20050415_1.png removed for performance

-- ArthurClemens - 15 Apr 2005

Sorry Arthur - but I hate it. It just doesn't say anything to me.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 16 Apr 2005

Crawford, I think it says 'T' wink

Seriously, i think the logo is very good, a large step forward from the FriendshipLogos. But doesn't match my perception of what TWiki should be. The text balloon tells me that TWiki is something that helps people talking/communicating with each other ('TalkWiki'?). Which is probably not the message we want to send. Keep up the good ideas though...

Regarding the TWikiMission, couldn't the T in TWiki stand for 'Team' and have the logo reflect that in some way? Can't figure out how though...

-- JosMaccabiani - 16 Apr 2005

I find Blogger's logo good. It's simple, direct, recognizable. But its just a styled B. No 'community', 'writing', 'changing the world as we know it'. Sometimes we are looking too much. Not to say we shouldn't be looking...

Here's another version of the text balloon idea, less heart:

image TWiki_logo_20050417_1.png removed for performance

-- ArthurClemens - 16 Apr 2005

Visually, the "T" is completely separated from "Wiki". This is something about a wiki, but the reader is left wondering what this "T" in the bubble is all about? Certainly it does not belong to the "Wiki"?

-- ThomasWeigert - 17 Apr 2005

There won't be a new logo in the next 'official' release, until Peter does approve, will it? Isn't this another useless effort?

  • Anybody may easily replace each logo by his/her favorite.
  • Logos should work in icon size too, shouldn't they?
And I'm with Crawford and Thomas about the proposals above. wink

-- FranzJosefSilli - 17 Apr 2005

Well, I don't like doing nothing about it smile

Yes, "TWiki" should be one word.

I have another idea, a little bit the "TWiki as tool" approach but with a heart twist. And a firmer font for credibility:

image TWiki_logo_20050417_2.png removed for performance

Compare for instance with Helvetica:

image TWiki_logo_20050417_2alt.png removed for performance

-- ArthurClemens - 17 Apr 2005

Arthur, sorry, that is the logo of a buzz-saw blade manufactorer - I forget which one. Thorsen?

I can't resist it - three other logo ideas, to see if they elicit a response.

First, the Egyptian gods of knowledge and communication, Thoth, whose name in hieroglyphics looks like this.

image THOTH.jpg removed for performance

Which almost reads as "TWiki" before you start. Well, with a bit of imagination it does.

Here's a logo idea based on the ibis from Thoth's name:

image thoth_wiki2.jpg removed for performance

The baboon is also a symbol of Thoth:

image thoth_baboon.gif removed for performance

interestingly enough, since the TWiki robot looks a bit like a baboon, from certain angles.

image Baboon.jpg removed for performance

Well, I think it does.

There got to a good design in there somewhere - I think the ibis is fantastic, myself - ThothWiki!

Second, the Celtic god Oghma, who is variously associated with Hermes and Hercules, as a war god and also god of commnuication. Oghma gave Ogham, also known as tree writing, to the druids. Tree writing was used for inscriptions on sacred stones. No, forget that, I just found this - someone else got there first. You've got to be wiki.

Third, my personal favourite for the image, though not the connotations, is KoKopelli, Hopi god of communication and fertility:

image kokopelli.jpg removed for performance

-- CrawfordCurrie - 17 Apr 2005

I think one problem TWiki has with a logo is the awkward spelling of the name. You cannot do anything sensible with the capital "T" and "W" combination. It also seems to me to be a clinging to its roots that might serve little purpose, and is a nuisance to type as it is. All the logos above suffer from that. Visually, the capital "T" and "W" never look good next to each other.

My logo idea is a hammer serving as the T, and the "wiki" in lower case next to it, but with kerning moving the "w" and "i" under the claw of the hammer. That goes with the tool idea that Arthur expressed above (by the way, the second image is missing).

All in all, this exercise may not be very important. As FJ said, most people put their own logos on their site. That is what we need to support well, and there is work to do. For example, it is difficult now to have a different logo on each web, unless they are all the same size. Otherwise, the WebLeftBar overlaps the logo. I think we should try to align the top of the WebLeftBar automatically (just as the top of the main text is) with the bottom of the WebTopBar, without having to set that in the style sheet. To me that would be effort much more important as it affects usability...

Another thing on usability... some (for example, I) might be stuck on how to produce a logo in the first place from an existing image... what tools to use, how to get it to be the right size, etc. (i.e., not the artistic aspects but the practical aspects of translating an existing logo into something that can be put into the WebTopBar). Some FAQ might be really useful here.

-- ThomasWeigert - 17 Apr 2005

image hammer2.gif removed for performance

I use OpenOffice "Drawing" or "Presentation" to generate vector images, usually by tracing bitmaps. You can put the bitmap on one layer, lock it, and then scribble over it on another layer, deleting the bitmap when you are done.

For generating and manipulating bitmaps, I use GIMP exclusively.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 17 Apr 2005

I think this logo is almost what I had in mind.

Right now it looks a little like the hammer is chasing the wiki figures. We have to make sure that is not the message. The little legs and arms soften this already, but, for example, could the hammer and the last figure hold hands to express that they are together? Maybe they should run the other way, with the hammer leading? Maybe they should just walk (even a little stilted, leaning backwards)? On the other hand, the running symbolizes the "quick" in "wiki". We just need to make sure that the running is done together rather than being a chase....

-- ThomasWeigert - 17 Apr 2005

Sure guys.

I have a non-saw blade version:

image TWiki_logo_20050417_3.png removed for performance

Crawford's ibis idea has also potential to develop, though it's a wee bit tame compared to Thunderbird. Do we have a fiery ibis?

-- ArthurClemens - 17 Apr 2005

So what is this "T" in your logo? Even the stock symbol will be retired...

  • Remember the name of our project? Starts with ...
    The logo is both image and full name, but you could use the image only for "powered by TWiki" variants.. --AC I think a single letter works well when one abbreviates a "real" word. I think it does not pan out so well when one tries to use it to signify abbreviatations or contractions. Imagine "B" for "BMW", while the "B" works pretty well for "Blogger".--TW

-- ThomasWeigert - 17 Apr 2005

I have another idea on the hammer theme...

What if the "wiki" figures are carrying the hammer above their shoulders? It would still look like a "T", just with the top bar extending to the right....

Then we can even capitalize the "W"... say the "W" and the "k" have their arms above the shoulder and carry the hammer (which looks like the leading "T".

  • Thomas, you must visualize this, or it will not work. You can't discuss design on basis of ideas only. Commenting on designs is ok.--AC If by "visualize" you mean draw, you are out of luck with me... (maybe I better shut up commenting on artwork) --TW

-- ThomasWeigert - 17 Apr 2005

So far we have identified a few themes and imagery:

  • Human / feeling
    • Heart
  • Tool / technology
  • Communication
    • Paper/text balloon
    • Ancient symbols like "God of communication": Ibis
  • Coorperation / teamwork
    • Hands

-- ArthurClemens - 17 Apr 2005

T takefive team technology that's thomas together tool ...
W wiki work wonderful what? weigert we work with world ...

There's Work to be done here. wink

We definitely don't lack ideas, we lack designers.

-- FranzJosefSilli - 18 Apr 2005

an other idea but no design!

WebAndTopic

-- MarcelTrap - 18 Apr 2005

With Shadow:

twiki_shadow_logo.png

Without Shadow:

twiki_shadow_logo2.png

Im using the second one here

-- TravisBarker - 18 Apr 2005

2 new ideas:

T steps:
TWiki_logo_20050419_1.png

Writing:
TWiki_logo_20050419_2.png

-- ArthurClemens - 19 Apr 2005

The first one says "TILT TWiki" at first glance but maybe that is just my dyslexia kicking in. The second one is just ugly, with that said, I can see the symbolism you have in mind there. I guess I would like to see something simple and clean. like the Nike "swish-mark" or the Gnome Footprint.

$0.2 -- TravisBarker - 20 Apr 2005

I made a few (simplified) variations on the second idea:

TWiki_logo_20050420_3.png

TWiki_logo_20050420_4.png

TWiki_logo_20050420_5.png

-- ArthurClemens - 20 Apr 2005

  • twiki_teamwork.gif:
    twiki_teamwork.gif

not as simple or clean as I would like but this is just a concept sketch using some artwork stolen from a google image search.

-- ?

Arthur, I really like your last fountain pen idea, if the 't' could be a little more clear (a cross bar would do the trick).

Might combining this idea with the text balloon go anywhere, i.e. the pen drawing the text balloon with the 't'? So that TWiki is approx. for communication and publishing?

-- JosMaccabiani - 20 Apr 2005

Jos, I immediately tried your suggestion:

TWiki_logo_20050420_6.png

-- ArthurClemens - 20 Apr 2005

Great! And for the finishing touch... Maybe add 'TWiki' between the fountain pen and the dark bottom layer. The version without the text is suitable for small icons. Very nice...

-- JosMaccabiani - 20 Apr 2005

Yes! This seems to be getting somewhere. Thanks Authur for not giving up on this important discussion! I like the last pen motif above also. Small detail: make sure the right bottom curve is same as left bottom curve. Another thought: if you mirror the left bottom curve with the right (both curve in), you approach a foreground/background contrast that suggest (to me at least) either a pen or a flower! (as in creativity flowering...)

-- LynnwoodBrown - 20 Apr 2005

It took me a while to see the pen, and even after I recognized it I often see a microphone sticking out. I like the idea, but is there a way of making it clearer that this is a pen? Also, where did the "T" go?

-- ThomasWeigert - 21 Apr 2005

A microphone? I saw a rubber sheet being stabbed with a screwdriver, probably because pen nibs are never quite that sharp. (I really like the symbolism, otherwise). You realise Peter is probably still going to want a heart in there somewhere?

Oh, and note Aurelio's use of yet another TWiki-powered logo, this time in Portuguese, here.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 21 Apr 2005

The logo of Technorati is quite similar to my last logo sketch.

-- ArthurClemens - 11 Jun 2005

SwissT.png

-- ArthurClemens - 02 Jul 2005

And more...

TheWiki.gif thoth2.gif

-- CrawfordCurrie - 04 Jul 2005

( shamelessly adapted from ArthurClemens' logo above. NOTE: colours may be off as i've created this on a poorly-calibrated lcd monitor ;( )

Size 16x16 32x32 48x48 64x64 128x128
ModernTalk ModernTalk-16.png ModernTalk-32.png ModernTalk-48.png ModernTalk-64.png ModernTalk-128.png
ModernTalk2 ModernTalk2-16.png ModernTalk2-32.png ModernTalk2-48.png ModernTalk2-64.png ModernTalk2-128.png
ModernTalk3 ModernTalk3-16.png       ModernTalk3-128.png

Alternate icons: ModernTalk-16-2.png   ModernTalk-16-3.png

-- WillNorris - 01 Aug 2005

TWiki1.jpeg

TWiki2.jpeg

Here are my tries hustling 'T' and 'W'.

-- MichaelDaum - 01 Aug 2005

logo_talk.png

Favicon version:

logo_talk_fav.gif

-- ArthurClemens - 12 Aug 2005

I liked MichaelDaums linked TW concept above so I thought I would isolate it from the rest of the word, it then takes on a "shape of its own" as a symbol itself.


TW


Oooh - Arthur, I think you are really getting somewhere there. Your latest suggests a couple of variations, both complementary, that suggest how we can build up a whole set of contextual logos based on the theme. Here are two that immediately spring to mind:

logo_talk3.png

  • Looks like the logo of Pro7, a german tv-station. -- FJ
  • yes - if you stand on your head and look in a mirror! hehe!

logo_talk3.png

A really good logo should always have a unique, recognisable non-text basis, and should be manipulable to suggest all sorts of concepts - what you did really fits the bill. I like it a lot.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 16 Aug 2005

ok, does that mean that everyone here doesn't like the RainbowHandsLogos on FriendshipLogos? Because I like it way more than the clinical impersonal ones that are being suggested here.

If you have eliminated the Rainbowhands logo for TWiki, Lynnwood, can I use it for a new wiki project i'm toying with?

-- SvenDowideit - 16 Aug 2005

Personally I don't like the rainbow hands logo, no. The idea is good, but the execution is way too fussy for my taste (sorry Lynnwood).

Later: I must admit I only just saw MichaelDaum's version, which I like a lot more, though it is still too fussy. Can we make do with fewer hands? It looks too much like a hedgehog at the moment.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 17 Aug 2005

Sorry, I don't like the red packman lolling his tongue wink There's no message in that blob. The rainbow hands have a strong and positive message.

-- MichaelDaum - 17 Aug 2005

Right, thats it!

this is SOOOO NOT A HEDGHOG . its an [[Echidna.

-- SvenDowideit - 17 Aug 2005

Yeah, I know, but it's a nicer picture than any of the hedgehog pictures I found.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 17 Aug 2005

First of all, Crawford - you could never insult me about a graphic that I invented in 20 minutes in the middle of the night. I repeat that I don't consider myself a graphic artist.

Next, could you define "fussy" for me? Do you mean busy or fastidious? If you mean the former, I might agree. If you mean the later, I personally find all the graphic ideas presented here a bit too much that for my taste (i.e. "clean" to the point of being sterile, totally lacking in warmth, fun, humanity - which I think is an essential quality of wikis).

Finally, do you mean the allusion to headgehogs as a negative? Don't you know that hedgehogs are all the rage in business strategy these days after Jim Collin's bestselling book Good To Great ? (Here's a synopsis of the idea.) So if it also looks like a hedgehog, that's a positive! wink

Also, I was personally inspired by AurelioAHeckert's animated "badge" version of the rainbow hands. Even more fun! Makes me think of a pinwheel or ferriswheel. smile

-- LynnwoodBrown - 17 Aug 2005

I've been thinking some about this whole question of reaching "consensus" about a twiki logo. Laying aside the matter of it being moot question unless PeterThoeny weights in, reaching consensus about as subjective a matter as selecting a graphic identity for TWiki is certainly an extreme test for our ability to achieve consensus!

This lead me a radical proposition: must we have just one logo for twiki? Don't corporations package the same "product" under different labels to target different markets? It seems to me the different aesthetics reflected in TWikiLogoDevelopment and FriendshipLogos (not to mention the ol' robot) are pretty profound and perhaps do reflect different twiki "markets." I'd still love to see "one logo to unite them all" but just thought I float another way of thinking about the whole matter.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 17 Aug 2005

Finally we get more opinions here. Which is good.

To react on some comments:

  • my proposals are clean (sterile?), I'm probably an old-school designer, less is more you know; I also try to make it work on small scale; but actually it should not totally be devoid of warmth, so I have discarded the blues for the reds; perhaps the curves and maybe hues could be worked on.
  • The rainbow hands work visually pretty well on large scale but don't scale down well; but the design reminds me of christian symbolic, especially the rainbow colors, a bit of 3rd world aid in there as well - not to insult people but that is also not what TWiki should propagate.

-- ArthurClemens - 17 Aug 2005

Interesting. The first time I saw the Ubuntu logo, I remember thinking that Ubuntu was probably a third-world christian charity, aid for Africa, or something, and avoiding their site for that reason.

Lynnwood, by "fussy" I meant "busy", yes. Frankly the rainbow hands make me think of tie-dying and psychadaelia. Maybe it's just my age. IMHO it is not the sort of logo that would be adopted by a professional organisation (in the same way as the TWiki robot isn't).

I agree that Arthur's logo lacks a clear message but that's pretty much the case for any tool which has such a wide applicability.

Question for PeterThoeny; does your almost total lack of response on this subject over the last 18 months mean that you are abdicating ownership of the TWiki brand identity? All these logos have been designed by people who are acknowledging your right to a final opinion, but unless you exercise that right, I'm starting to feel you should lose the right to a vote, otherwise we can never move ahead on this issue.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 18 Aug 2005

Arthur - As usual, your comments reveal facets of the discussion that were, frankly, beyond my level of discernment in such matters - which is why, in the end, I would probably defer to your judgment.

Perhaps I have unrealistic desires for a TWiki logo in terms of conveying some meaning and generally being evocative. Admittedly, most logos I see are, to me, neither evocative nor particularly memorable. All that you and Crawford suggest about the the rainbow hands are no doubt valid and, again no doubt reflecting my lack of sophistication in such matters, don't bother me much. What more can I say then I hear all you are saying about the rainbow hands, and I simply like it.

In the end, I'd just want to see some forward movement on this before the next release.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 18 Aug 2005

Ok, so nearly every effort has been commented in one or the other way. Congratulations in driving backwards...

Let's come to new undertakings and more creative action.

First of all, I must agree that a logo should have a good non-textual foundation. However, every non-textual approach above and on FriendshipLogos (besides the rainbow hands that I still do like) are rather callow and antiseptic, speaking frankly. Let's do something more agile. So far my part of logo bashing.

So, what about an animal mascot like a TWikiCat or a TWikiBird (forget the hedgehog btw).

I can fancy a stylised bird with a colorful span of feathers who's name is, quelle surprise, TWiki.

A cat would be nice likewise. My daughter has drawn a nice contour of a cat with a round hunchback. Here's some TWiki adaptation:

TWikiCat2.png

This is just an idea.

-- MichaelDaum - 21 Aug 2005

Nice idea, the writing could be the cats' stripes thus making the cute kitty a kind of tiger. smile And it's an homage to OWikis' cat. Its 'back' so to speak. wink

-- FranzJosefSilli - 21 Aug 2005

The TWiki robot is controversial, with opinions ranging from complete rejection to embracement. It was never boring, but controversial and recognizable. The TWikiHeart is TWikiCommunity oriented and will remain. SwitchingGears, the time is here to rebrand TWiki. With the goal to raise the professional level of TWiki.

We have seen many proposals over time; some very interesting ones. The HighResolutionLogos were proposed first, generously donated by VitoMiliano in 2002. The logo is professional but conveys a message of a tool, which is just one aspect of TWiki. Some, inclusing myself, consider it somewhat cold, and not connected to the collaboration aspect. Then we had many FriendshipLogos suggested. They are very much community oriented, with great colors, and they convey the collaboration aspect, but fall short on the professionalism. This topic here has some professional logo suggestions as well.

The logo selection has taken three years, clearly an indication that the process cannot be done by a committee. Arthur suggested to hire a professional person to design the logo. I think this is a good idea, but this is no option until we have some funding.

Lets try to see if we find a good logo. I would like to list the goals for the new logo:

  1. Should be easy to recognize, e.g. simple design
  2. Should represent the TWiki project and the TWikiMission
  3. Should convey the message of collaboration (working together)
  4. Should stand out if listed together with other logos
  5. Should be easy to scale down, also to favicon size

TWiki has already good name recognition, that is, we can play with the name. For comparison, Blogger's logo is very simple and recognizable, a simple big "B" in a box (http://images.google.com/images?q=blogger+logo). "B" for blogging, so "T" for TWiki? In this line, Arthur made a very good suggestion with the "T" logo in a speech bubble. I took his idea to brainstorm some more. How about "TW" to make it descriptive? Hmm, does not look that appealing:

  • Logo with 'TW' in a speech bubble:
    Logo with 'TW' in a speech bubble

How about designing a logo that has two parts, one minimal square version that can be scaled down, and one wide version what is descriptive? I took Arthurs logo, turned the pointy part around and put a descriptive "Collaborate with TWiki" tagline in a gray box:

  • Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, pointy part to the right:
    Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, pointy part to the right

  • Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, favicon size:
    Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, favicon size

  • Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, with 'Collaborate with TWiki' tagline:
    Logo with 'T' in a speech bubble, with 'Collaborate with TWiki' tagline

I tried this out at LinuxWorld: I printed out name cards with this logo. I got good remarks on the logo (that were unsolicited):

  • Experimental name card with 'T' logo:
    Experimental business card with 'T' logo
  • The new logo looks good at my business card. smile

This logo fits most of the goals, we are almost there I think. Life is colorful, especially when collaborating in a Wiki. Is it possible to incorporate some of the nice colors of the FriendshipLogos? JBoss has a colorful logo with small circles (http://images.google.com/images?q=jboss+logo). Opinions?

-- PeterThoeny - 31 Aug 2005

Welcome to the fray, Peter.

As I'm sure you realise, we could easily have pushed through a new logo design before now, but for one thing - we have all been agreed that you should have the final say, and you have not before now exercised that say. Committee design has not been the problem; getting agreement from the client has.

FWIW the negatives about the speech bubble idea, and the use of text on the logo, have been frequently and clearly expressed elsewhere. However the rest of us are so fed up with this process that we are likely to accept any compromise.

  • I do not agree that we should avoid text in logos. Case in point: Text logos such as Google, Exon, Disney, eBay, CNN and Blogger are well recognized by the public -- PeterThoeny - 02 Sep 2005

-- CrawfordCurrie - 31 Aug 2005

I'm sorry, but I don't like it in this for as it seems too cold and 'nothing' to me. (but then thats the problem i have will all the logos on this topic :()

it sure looks like a good, stable corporate logo, but not like one for an open source project. (So it makes for a great business card, but i wouldn't want to wear it on a tshirt smile )

which i think reinforces Lynnwood's suggestion that we should have 2 faces on the coin that is TWiki (like SocialText - they have 2 logos, one for them, and one for kwiki)

mind you, if someone can make a slick variant on the hands logo, that would be interesting (just in case it can be made to look professional)

-- SvenDowideit - 31 Aug 2005

Crawford, I can sense some level of frustration. I am guilty as charged by not addressing the logo question for a long long time.

Sven, I really like the colorful t-shirts, nice to wear at a casual party. But they do not fit a corporate environment (based on TWikiMission). Hence the idea of a simple "T" logo, but with some more colors. To clarify, the logo development here is for the open source TWiki project, and nothing else.

Over IM SamHasler pointed out that "business card" could be misleading (thanks Sam). To clarify I changed that to a more accurate "name card". The idea is to have a name card to represent and promote the open source TWiki community when giving talks, and a different name card to represent a business. Open source community should not be mixed with business. SocialText and RedHat realized that.

-- PeterThoeny - 31 Aug 2005

Lets stop the designs for a second. Whether we invite a professional designer or not, let us first get to agreement what the logo should be (and not be). The person who is going to make the logo will need to have guidance for what the logo should communicate (even if it is just a shape).

Now that Peter has stepped in, the list can be made final.

Its probably impossible for a designer to incorporate all whishes in one logo, but a list can also be prioritized.

See list at top.

-- ArthurClemens - 31 Aug 2005

Thanks, Peter for getting involved with this discussion! And thanks Arthur for focusing the conversation back on what we want the logo to communicate!

In addition to Arthurs qualities (which are all fine), I would like to make the case that spontenity or even fun is an essential quality of wikis. All through the 90s, major money was invested on creating software for "collaboration" and team work that was subsequently imposed top-down in good corporate style and virtually all of it was a dismal failure. Then along come wikis which didn't impose a particular structure on how workers organized info and it was not only embraced but, in some cases, embraced almost passionately! (A strange thing for a software package.) If we do not capture some of what provokes that kind of response, I can't help but feel we've missed the mark. This much is clear to me.

(btw, I think JotSpot definitely strives to embody some this spirit - not that I'm suggesting their particular look is something we should emulate).

What is a more elusive for me is what constitutes or identifies a "corporate" look? What are the specific qualities? Is it simply "clear" or "clean" or perhaps the "feel" of professional graphic execution. Is there a message there? Or is it a "negative quality" - i.e. avoid anything that might "put off" top management - so we can get on with the real work/play of creativity? hehe!

So I'd welcome some more specifics from folks who understand this market.

Melding these qualities is certainly not impossible but also is no small task! Some might suggest that we're making too much of the logo and that a "good enough" logo that doesn't offend anyone is all we need. If we had a huge marketing machine to push TWiki, this might well hold. But if we're expecting (more realistically) that TWiki marketing will be more through bottom-up, grass-roots buzz, then this may not be a trivial matter.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 01 Sep 2005

The problem with Lynnwood's argument is that TWiki cannot afford to be "fun" when it is trying to appeal to a corporate environment. I agree with Peter in that. But I think what he wants - a logo that is acceptable in a corporate setting, but also reflects core developer values such as fun, openess and free communication - is an oxymoron.

Someone suggested we should have two logos. Perhaps we should, to reflect the fact that TWiki addresses two quite different markets; the bloggy / fun / internet / chatty / open / informal, and the serious / hierarchical / organised / structured. One market calls for open hands, hearts, fluffy robots. The other calls for crisp, communicative, professional, polished design.

This schizophrenia is a major problem, as the way TWiki gets into corporations is through the grass roots. People at grass roots are more attracted by fluffy robots, or at least don't mind. But as soon as it starts to climb the corporate tree, the image has to be able to adapt to survive. Don't underestimate the impact a logo and a name has on corporate wienies. The TWiki robot has been a major factor in killing TWiki adoption in several companies, to my certain knowledge. The opportunity to say "beedly beedly beedly", and thus instantly dismiss TWiki as a joke, is just too good an opportunity for some people to miss.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 01 Sep 2005

Just to be clear, it's not the "core developer values" I was speaking to, but the folks who will most likely be the actual users. That is, the "bottom-up" adopters who, at least according to annedotal evidence are often the channel by which TWiki enters corporate settings, not top management. That being said, I agree the logo should not put off top management - so in end would defer to those who understand that sensibility better then I do.

Perhaps, you are right that these two aesthetics are irreconcilable. I'm not convinced that's the case but acknowledge it would take a particularly clever/skilled graphics person to pull it off - and perhaps not a realistic goal given our budget.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 01 Sep 2005

Maybe an idea to conntect the T to the Wiki? But I am not an artist:

A talking W that says T

Again it's not very corporate...

-- ChristopherOezbek - 01 Sep 2005

I would not "stop the designs" since at this time we do not have a revenue stream to pay for a professional designer. If anyone has creative ideas on a more colorfull version of the "Swiss T" logo please post it here. smile

I updated the logo goals based on recent discussions.

-- PeterThoeny - 02 Sep 2005

Ok here's some variations on the "Swiss T" using the FriendshipLogos hands colours:

Swiss T variations PNG favicon size

here they are in favicon size:

Swiss T variations PNG

and here's the SVG if you want to edit them (hint: Inkscape)

-- SamHasler - 02 Sep 2005

Wow, very nice Sam! Number 3 is simple and colorful. Wikis are fun, rainbow colors are fun. With some tweaks it can be made nice for favicon size too.

The colorful hands are nice too. Although the gesture might suggest STOP, don't come close.

-- PeterThoeny - 03 Sep 2005

Here is another study, a Swiss-T with 45 degree rainbow:
Swiss-T with 45 degree rainbow

Hmm, the favicon size logo has washed out colors.

-- PeterThoeny - 03 Sep 2005

One of your criteria is that it works in B&W. Why not just do the favicon in monochrome? That should scale OK.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 04 Sep 2005

I find these proportions a bit more friendly and 'less serious':

logo_balloon_rounded.png

Illustrator version attached as well.

-- ArthurClemens - 04 Sep 2005

Peter, did you get that 45 degree effect in Inkscape? I wanted to do that but I couldn't work out how.

Arthur, I like those proportions. Can you export them as SVG?

-- SamHasler - 04 Sep 2005

http://twiki.org/p/pub/Codev/TWikiLogoDevelopment/logo_balloon_rounded.svg attached.

-- ArthurClemens - 04 Sep 2005

The SVG didn't load into Inkscape; I attached one that does.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 05 Sep 2005

and all this time I missed the one we have in our intranet.

twikilogo.gif

The whole L&F was done by our designer, and this logo was not supposed to be standalone.

-- RafaelAlvarez - 05 Sep 2005

Arthur: IMHO, the larger rounded edges look good, bit the fat T looks a bit too cartoonish to be professional.

Sam: I did the 45 degree rainbow in Paint Shop Pro:

  • Image 1: 45 degree rotated rainbow
  • Image 2: Swiss-T in red
  • Select red part of image 2 with magic wand
  • Use clone brush (with large brush), select origin at center image 1 (rainbox), and copy rainbow over to image 2

-- PeterThoeny - 05 Sep 2005

Humph. FWIW, I thought the fat T redeemed it - I actually started to like it when I saw that. It looks a bit like a Swiss flag fith the crossbar in the wrong place now. See http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki to see it "live" (when Sven has fixed it)

(oops - forgot to check it in, it should be there now)

-- CrawfordCurrie - 05 Sep 2005

A bit smaller version looks better I think. And with corrected T:

scale example

-- ArthurClemens - 06 Sep 2005

If the bubble with the "T" is accomplished by something else, such as the "collaborate with TWiki" in PeterThoeny's name card, it looks fine. Standing on its own, as in above, it just looks like a malformed Swiss flag.... frown

-- ThomasWeigert - 06 Sep 2005

I wouldn't say it is finished. Of course there needs to be the TWiki name next to an image logo. And colors make a difference too.

-- ArthurClemens - 06 Sep 2005

The idea is to have two logos, a long rectangular one (preferred use), and a square one if space is constraint (for favicon)

After some additional study, the fat T on a bit of diet:
Swiss-T with round edges study

4 color studies are shown, each with 130 pixel (for design), 40 pixel (actual size) and 16 pixel (favicon). The favicon size is not yet hand optimized.

Actual size of orange/red Swiss-T: (text is not sharp, it needs to be hand optimized)

PNG: Actual size of orange/red Swiss-T   Transparent GIF: Actual size of orange/red Swiss-T, transparent background

IMHO, the shape is good now. What about the colors? I kind of like the orange/red version. Other ideas for colors?

I do not think that we need to design for B&W; grayscale (for printed material) should be fine.

-- PeterThoeny - 06 Sep 2005

The gray block doesn't have a logical shape yet; it is a bit 'stuck on'. We need some variations on this theme to improve the overall shape.

-- ArthurClemens - 06 Sep 2005

My colorful version:

logo_balloon_rounded_colorlabel.png

With a somewhat bigger label font:

With orange label, bigger font

-- ArthurClemens - 06 Sep 2005

Balloon color: The yellow/orange version is the best, IMHO Collaborate color: The grey is better than the yellow, as the text is hard to read on the latter. Logo letter: The "T" looks to squarish in the rounded balloon. A slightly different font would be great?

Is there a way of having the T in the balloon and the wiki in the collaboration box and they form one word? The spacing is awkward, I realize, but is there some way of making that work?

-- ThomasWeigert - 06 Sep 2005

i also like the orange/yellow colours for the balloon logo (in fact, i checked in a version to SVN 6266). i also find the text on the gradient hard to read. looks like it's getting close, though! smile

-- WillNorris - 07 Sep 2005

5 Cardinal Rules of Logo Design

3. Your logo should work well in black and white (one-color printing). If it doesn't look good in black and white, it won't look good it any color. Also keep in mind that printing costs for four-color logos are often greater than that for one- or two-color jobs).

everything i've ever read about logo design says you need a one-colour design. that doesn't mean there's a 1:1 correspondence between the colour version and the b&w version; instead, usually the b&w version is a slightly simplified version of the colour logo. for example, the gradient colour would still work as the full-colour logo, while a 1 colour version would either use a solid fill for that area, or present the balloon as an outline (and then maybe the T is filled in). while i suppose you can advocate that grayscale is a one-colour design, i feel that it simply doesn't look any good as grayscale. to me, grayscale gradients (including this one) appear rather cheesy. they also require a higher resolution printing process than a true one-colour design. i hope i have made a convincing case; if not, let me know so i can expand on this reasoning.

also, keep in mind that the one-colour version would rarely be used.

-- WillNorris - 07 Sep 2005

I would not worry too much about a B&W version; we do not have printed marketing collateral or hardware to sell. TWiki is mainly used online (most monitors are color), and content is printed (all printers print gray scale).

Will: Thanks for checking in the trial version. I think it is better to use the square version only for favicon, e.g. better to use the long rectangular version.

Arthur: The latest study is visually appealing (except for the cartoonish T). However, we lose the visual speech bubble, which gives the collaboration aspect.

Possibly go back to the gray, but use a lighter gray, and different color(s) for the text on the gray background?

Just food for thought, here is a Swiss-T with colorful TWiki text: (but colors are horribly unbalanced)
Swiss-T with colorful TWiki text

Would it look better with text in continuous rainbow colors?

-- PeterThoeny - 07 Sep 2005

Food for thought Balloon-word.png

Personally I think gradients and rainbow colors just have too much of a "My Little Pony" feel about them.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 07 Sep 2005

Great simplification Crawford. I like it, it's KISS.

-- FranzJosefSilli - 07 Sep 2005

A new word image:

A new word image

Grayscale version:

Gray version

Black and white version:

Black version

Having the o aligned as head:

Having the o aligned as head

T holding hands with W:

T holding hands with W

-- ArthurClemens - 07 Sep 2005

Clever. Very clever. I really like those last two. It's a pen nib, it's a flower, it's a T, it's a person with their arms open wide. It's simple, it scales well, it has enough curves to be friendly, and enough straight lines to be professional.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 08 Sep 2005

This is a good design. Agreed with Crawford, it looks professional. But I have one concern. To the uninitiated it might look like like a logo on the left with text "Wiki" on the right. How about making the pen more letter-like? Here are food for thought attempts; the proportions don't look quite right yet:

T-shaped pen

Also, how about adding a orange/red gradient? Looks playful and professional.

Another thought: Wiki content is imperfect by design, any way to bring in the WabiSabi aspect?

-- PeterThoeny - 08 Sep 2005

Hmmmm. Making it look too much like a pen/letter definitely reduces the impact of the logo (makes it too fussy). Gradients are fine if you want a "My Little Pony" effect for a specific application, but the basic logo should work without a gradient.

On the other hand, I am starting to have a horrible feeling that Arthur's original may be the logo of some religious fundamentalist group. I unconciously saved the copy I was playing with as "angel.svg"..... frown

  • Another option for teeing the angel:
    angel2.png

-- CrawfordCurrie - 08 Sep 2005

I think you guys hit on it now! Either version ( logo3-o-aligned.png or logo3-T-pen.png ) are excellent. Crawford's angel2.png requires a different font for the words due to the appearance of serif on the 'T'...

-- ThomasWeigert - 08 Sep 2005

A friend of mine suggested it looks like an antelope's face, as well (maybe even a Gnu's face!). There's just so much you can do with this logo! I love it. gnuangel.png

Oh, and I just realised it looks like something swooping from the background into the foreground as well. Heh. angelswoop.png

-- CrawfordCurrie - 08 Sep 2005

atari ? (though its cute)

-- SvenDowideit - 08 Sep 2005

Staring at it some more, I'd go with Peter's second version...

-- ThomasWeigert - 09 Sep 2005

damn, i was going to suggest that Peter's first one is more balanced, Thomas, are we ever going to agree? smile

-- SvenDowideit - 09 Sep 2005

Not with me; I don't like either of Peter's bird-tables anywhere as much as Arthur's original! They just look so..... baroque.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 09 Sep 2005

The problem we should work on is it might look like like a logo on the left with text "Wiki" on the right - I don't think making it more like a pen will solve this problem, instead it makes the sign stand out more on itself.

-- ArthurClemens - 09 Sep 2005

The reason why I liked Peter's second version was because

  • the pen looks very much like a "T"
  • this is the first logo where it actually reads like TWiki, rather than some isolated "T" with something else tacked on the side.

-- ThomasWeigert - 09 Sep 2005

I agree with Thomas - I like Peter's second version and for the same reasons. My only change would be to justify to small type with the edges of the large type.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 09 Sep 2005

Here is some feedback from a designer I asked (via an associate):

as for the twiki logo- I think it seems to be on the right track as far as the variations on this theme: SwissT2.png or logo_talk.png

I like the simpler ones- no gradients, rainbow colors & such. I think it's done, actually & the discussion should move on to implementation on the site, biz cards, etc... The only thing I might do is make a version for onscreen use with VERY subtle gradients (red to dark red for example, and possibly a very shallow, very soft bevel on the icon itself.

I asked another designer who specializes in corporate identity and logos. We will hear from him in the next few days.

-- PeterThoeny - 09 Sep 2005

Well, if it's between those two I'd vote for fat-T or pacman, with a strong preference for pacman. Thin-T is just far too boring. Did your tame designer see Arthur's swoop?

  • The designer looked at this page. -- PTh

-- CrawfordCurrie - 09 Sep 2005

So the logo3-T-pen.png (the T-pen) is out? Did you ask about that one? If the choice really is only between the last two, I prefer logo_talk.png aka pacman. But my preference was the T-pen.

-- ThomasWeigert - 09 Sep 2005

No, this is the opinion of a designer. We can decide on our own. I am in line with Thomas.

I would like to bring in some fun factor. Here are some more color studies, food for thought:

  • T with center gradient: logo3-T-pen-grad.png
    T with center gradient

  • T with left-right gradient: logo3-T-pen-grad2.png
    T with left-right gradient

  • Rainbow text: logo3-T-pen-rb.png
    Rainbow text

  • Rainbow letters: logo3-T-pen-rb2.png
    Rainbow letters

Hmm, the rainbow colors are not appealing to corporate decision makers. Possibly play more with "T with center gradient"?

-- PeterThoeny - 09 Sep 2005

I am ready to play with all sorts of logo variations, but now I am starting to feel discouraged by all this enthousiasm. I would feel more comfortable with a more clear defined client/patron role, or with a decision board for that matter.

Some things are bugging me in the process - I am getting all kinds of questions bubbling:

Who is going to do the work? Who will be guiding the guidelines? Who is going to decide?

Would that be the same person?

Who is brought in for a second opinion? Should they be taken seriously? If yes, who is going to forward the weight of the arguments? If not, what answers where we trying to get?

Are we still looking? What are we missing? What have we achieved?

-- ArthurClemens - 09 Sep 2005

I totally share Arthur's confusion/frustration about the path to closure on this matter. The one point I'm confident we can all agree on is that we want some decision before DakarRelease. Towards that end, I propose:

  1. ArthurClemens be encouraged to do one more round of variations if he's willing.
  2. He and PeterThoeny make the final decision.
  3. We all break open the Champagne to celebrate the new logo. smile

A couple of supporting points for this proposal:

  • It is probably not coincidence that a professional designer selected Arthur's earlier ideas as the best of the bunch.
  • In his recent posts, PeterThoeny has shown appreciation for the full range of sentiments put forth. Therefore, I think he is in a fair position to represent the "client" (i.e. the TWiki community) in relation to Arthur's role as designer.

Does anyone have strong objections to this or an alternative proposal for reaching closure (at least for this round) in time for DakarRelease?

-- LynnwoodBrown - 09 Sep 2005

Arthur, please consider my logo contributions as food for thought. I think you should come up with a final logo based on all the contributions we have on this topic. I would suggest to wait for the feedback from the second designer, which can bring new ideas and/or vaidation. Ultimately it is on us to decide.

I am OK with Arthur and me deciding on the final logo. I feel honored to represent the voice of the community, and will try to do so sensibly.

-- PeterThoeny - 09 Sep 2005

OK, then let's get on with it!

-- CrawfordCurrie - 11 Sep 2005

This is a proposal continuing on the talk balloon - but with more emphasis on the communication process in time. Also a tad more cheerful with the yellow and red wink

logo_balloon2.png

Scaled down variant:

logo_balloon2-sm.png

I think for the favicon version the outer right balloon stick can be omitted:

logo_balloon2-ico.png

-- ArthurClemens - 11 Sep 2005

This process is frustrating. It seemed that we just all had agreed that the T-pen logo was the way to go. Now suddenly we are starting all over again....

-- ThomasWeigert - 12 Sep 2005

well, i favour the talk balloon series, preferably with colour. as much as i do like rainbows wink , i don't think they're appropriate for TWiki's logo.

however, as CrawfordCurrie said earlier, at this point in the process, i am "likely to accept any compromise."

-- WillNorris - 12 Sep 2005

"All agreed" is putting it a bit strongly. "Reluctantly prepared to compromise on" is closer to the fact. My main concern is to have something clean, simple, preferably monochromatic, but definitely before friday! BTW TNib doesn't scale to favicon size particularly well. nib.png

I still can't quite believe you are passing up on such a superb opportunity as

angel3.png favicon angel3_favicon.png

Oh well.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 12 Sep 2005

Yes, angel3.png is a good one too.

I am not sure how important it is to scale down to favicon size. When would we ever need a TWiki logo that small? Favicons are more to give little indicators in the document, such as alerts, notes, etc.

-- ThomasWeigert - 12 Sep 2005

Favicons are used in the tab in firefox, and in the URL box in IE I think, so they are highly visible. The nib favicon is OK, it's just not terribly good (looks more like a full-frontal of an elephant).

BTW I have vector SVG's for all the nib and angel options, so when Peter and Arthur have done their stuff, we should be able to roll quickly.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 12 Sep 2005

You are right about the elephant... the bubble is not any great shakes either at this size...

-- ThomasWeigert - 12 Sep 2005

I have asked a friend of mine to have a look at the logos on this page (or actually the collection I have made of it). Ingeborg is art director/designer corporate communication, and has made a lot of company logos in her career.

This is her (translated) reaction:

the three best logos according to Ingeborg

I find these three good! The middle one characterizes community the most and has the biggest fun factor. The upper one is an apt metaphor for communication, message. The lower one is nicely simple with a high degree of recognition, but the capital 'T' could be a lot more characteristic.

They all three miss a characteristic typography.

The middle one has my preference.

The middle one has my preference too. But I will have to take another stab at the logotype (letters).

-- ArthurClemens - 12 Sep 2005

Well, if that's the choices, IMHO the middle one wins hands-down (I'm looking at the logo, here, rather than the words).

Note that every logo designer is likely to come back with a different opinion, same as we do. At the end of the day, it's up to Arthur and Peter to make a decision by Friday.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 13 Sep 2005

I'd like to commit to Fri, but I am a lttl prssd rght nw, and will follow up next week. Just quickly, my personal favorites are the somewhat fat T logo for its simplicity and easy of memorizing, and the T-pen logo for design (typeface and shape need to be worked on). Favicon size T-pen logo can be tweaked to look nice.

The concentric talk ballon is interesting, but something does not look right. Not sure what, possibly the extended part to the right should meet at the same point? E.g., yellow ballon pointing down?

-- PeterThoeny - 15 Sep 2005

Could you elaborate on your last sentence? I am not sure if I can follow.

-- ArthurClemens - 15 Sep 2005

A picture speaks a thousand words smile

What I meant was concentric ballons with a point meeting at the same spot:
Concentric ballons with one point

But this also does not look quite right.

-- PeterThoeny - 15 Sep 2005

I think the lines should be tweaked pixel precise to remove the feeling of something not right. But I won't be able to work on this before sometime next week.

In the meantime I made version with a different font (with tweaked T and dots):

Tweaked with different font

-- ArthurClemens - 15 Sep 2005

Hey guys, we're not asking you to be artists, but simply to MAKE A DECISION. There are plenty of great logos on the table already. Just PICK ONE!!!!

(Peter, FWIW I suspect your disquiet is due to it looking like a capital Q. Reverse it, put the tail on the left, like it was originally.
e.g. recursive.png)

-- CrawfordCurrie - 16 Sep 2005

OK. My preference is logo_balloon2.png. I'll leave the tweaking till later.

-- ArthurClemens - 16 Sep 2005

TWikiLogo.png

-- MichaelDaum - 16 Sep 2005

Nice one, Michael.

Or you might consider the beta logo. See http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/IfStatements

And here's another rendering of the aligned variant

teamstalk.png

-- CrawfordCurrie - 16 Sep 2005

Food for thought: Logo Trends 2005

> In addition to noting these trends, it is also helpful to take a 
> look back at trends noted by LogoLounge.com in the past several 
> years to gain more perspective.

-- MichaelDaum - 18 Sep 2005

Have a look at http://develop.twiki.org/~develop/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiLogos to see some of the ways the pen can be used to reinforce the teamwork message; holding hands, standing on shoulders etc. Ignore the colours, those can be refined.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 18 Sep 2005

I care much more that we have a new logo than what it is. I do like the pen logo.

In the standalone version like I'd prefer the T was slanting slightly to the right as if in a mid-writing pose than dead upright. Looks more pen like.

In the collaborative version the head-dots as o's in the text is a really neat idea.

-- MartinCleaver - 18 Sep 2005

OK, it is decided: We will go with a variation on the Swiss-T bubble. Arthur and I will work on finalizing the logo.

Arthur was not fond of the T-pen, I could not warm up to the concentric bubbles. Both of us like the Swiss-T bubble. It conveys speech & collaboration, stands out (high recognition), and is easy to remember.

Thank you all for the big enthusiastic support on the logo development!

-- PeterThoeny - 19 Sep 2005

I actually like the penknib, but only the version that has the italic script flowing from it that isn't illustrated here but came up once in the Dakar packaging (smallLogo.gif). The pen knib with the upright san serif is to .... well, hard.

And when it apears as a stacked threesome (vertTWiki.gif) san serif that was a turn off; much much to harsh.

The concentric bubbles did noting for me as a logo but as favion I could live with them - different colours for each web. I'd prefer the pen knib though. I'd really like it if it was done in away that is more inviting of writing, as Martin hints at.

Speech ? Or Writing?

-- AntonAylward - 19 Sep 2005

OK. I don't really like it, because it's so inflexible, but I can live with it. Please check in the SVG as well as GIFs to: TWiki/TWikiLogos (all variants), bin/logos/logo.png, Main/WebPreferences/logo.png, TWiki/WebPreferences/logo.png. The logo.png's need to be <= 52 high.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 20 Sep 2005

Congratulations to us all on the logo decision (and a big thank you to you, Arthur, for the logo idea) smile ! Personally I have been hoping that the Swiss-T bubble logo would be chosen since I saw it the first time, and I am very happy with things going in that direction. I'm sure it will be a big asset for TWiki having a defined and professional logo - looking forward to see the final version in production wink

-- SteffenPoulsen - 20 Sep 2005

Well, Crawfords T provides much more variation possibilities, and it's a great combination of everything, the T, the W, the pen and even the robot who becomes human. It even works great with writing and it's KISS. Put it into the a nice bubble (frame) instead of the plain T and you've got everything in one.

merged.gif merged_small.gif merged_tiny.gif
We all accept (of course) the decision made by Peter and Arthur, cause it's for them to decide. Thanks for that! Let's get Dakar out of the door right to the people where it belongs!

-- FranzJosefSilli - 20 Sep 2005

I second FranzJosefSilli's suggestion. Close enough to the chosen Swiss T, but much nicer. I'd remove the dot on top of the pen, and maybe tilt the pen a little to look more like a real pen....

-- ThomasWeigert - 20 Sep 2005

What's this with the "One and only one" approach? Some kind of Calvinist "One True Faith"? Will heretics who use some other logo that once appeared here be burnt at the stake or banished to the gulag of PHP-dom?

Why can't it be shipped with a library of the logos, different colours (or svg and so editable), manikin-looking with dot, pure knib without, tilt and no tilt, text and no text...?

Most sites are going to customise and will certainly apply their brand to their custom webs. We've got a host of other things that can be and have been customized.

-- AntonAylward - 20 Sep 2005

Well, one of my favorite movies is Highlander (One). smile Of course a library of logos would be fine, but who would produce one? wink It's just fun to play around with this stuff and thus nobody should take it too seriously.

-- FranzJosefSilli - 21 Sep 2005

Anton, that's a darn good idea. We could acknowledge all the effort people have put into the logos by shipping a link back to a library of logos on TWiki.org. All it needs is someone to assemble one.

The release itself will ship with one logo, used consistently.

-- CrawfordCurrie (a.k.a Prisoner 109467445384, свободныйвыбор Camp) - 21 Sep 2005

Slanty pen from http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=fountain+pen&btnG=Search:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=fountain+pen&btnG=Search

-- MartinCleaver - 21 Sep 2005

Looks like Flash Gordon's rocket. Or was that Flesh Gordon....? hehe!

-- CrawfordCurrie - 21 Sep 2005

A bag of logos? What does that say about TWiki?

-- ArthurClemens - 21 Sep 2005

What's wrong with a TWikiGallery.

-- MichaelDaum - 21 Sep 2005

TWiki should have "One and only one" representative logo for the builds, distros, backlinks to twiki.org, "powered by" icons, etc. Is like the "image" of the "product".

Anyway, I like the idea to have a library of logos somewhere (either twiki.org or bundled in the distro) so each site can use it's own.

-- RafaelAlvarez - 22 Sep 2005

It is all about branding. You can't build name regognition with a library of logos. One and only one logo will be used for TWiki.org and the official distributions. Mercedes, Coca Cola, McDonalds have a brand recognition due to the unique logo. NEC slighly changed the typeface a few years back to make it look more modern, but they kept it similar enough to keep it recognizable.

With the new TWiki logo we will make a complete switch. This is bad from the branding perspective, but necessary to get a good brand recognition in the long run.

Update on the logo: Arthur and I exchanged many iterations. We hope to finalize the logo this coming weekend.

-- PeterThoeny - 29 Sep 2005

Peter talks of 'Branding". The logo apears on the WebTopBar on 'regular' pages but the 'oops' pages, including the login page under Dakar are blank.

Or so it is with PatternSkin. With MichaelDaum's NatSkin a consistent look an feel is maintained on all views, regular, edit, login ....

I don't see why the logo can't apear on the oops pages as well. (I call them pages since they are not topics.)

-- AntonAylward - 30 Sep 2005

Peter: Your brand is not my brand. My clients want their own brand or logo on their sites. I think this is reasonable.

For my own sites I may well prefer that a library of images is available from which I can choose how I want to represent my own site.

"One and only one logo will be used for TWiki.org" That's fair, I have no argument what so ever.

"...and the official distributions." Again, no argument. If I take an official distribution I expect it to come with the 'standard' stuff, and that includes the 'standard' official logo.

But are you going to police sites that choose to use some other logo? Many already do use their own logos - and there are links to them on Twiki.org.

If creative people want to donate images, be they logos, icons, favicons, whatever, to topics like this, I think they should be encouraged. Its no different to donating plugins or contributing other code. Many of the site adminsitrators might decide that another image might better express the motive or feel of their site. Many already do so.

This is what I mean by a 'library'. Because there are people like myself who, unlike Arthur, Crawford, Lynwood and others, are simply not artistically creative.

I've already made use of the 'joined hands' logo at one community site I set up since I think it better expresses the feelings there than any other. I very much hope that this "One and only one logo" policy doens't mean that I, along with many other sites, will have to take down our prefered logos or that Topics like this one will be purged, so denying us alternatives.

-- AntonAylward - 30 Sep 2005

I was writing about TWiki.org and the official TWiki distributions. Site owners are of course free to chose their own skin, site logo etc.

Nevertheless, the logo in the TWiki web home page pointing back to TWiki.org should be the offical one. (Some sites have changed that; incidentially, according to the TWiki.org access statistics, the public TWiki site that brings most traffic to TWiki.org has an unusual TWiki logo, http://faemalia.org/wiki/view/Tweak/GroundZero)

-- PeterThoeny - 30 Sep 2005

"Unusual"? Indeed.

Perhaps if the regular logos had more of a flesh-tome colour it would apear in more graphics search engines, not least those of the FBI. (Various programs used by law enforcement already exist and others are being developed to scan for suspicious 'possibly pornogrpahic' images. Some of them look for 'skin tome'. These, however, also turn up legitimate glamour images.)

Seriously, though. I have 2 suggestions.

The first is that there should be a 'postage stamp' log that goes in the bottom bar of every dislayed topic, along with the copyright notice. It is a small "Powered by TWiki" graphic, just like "Powered by Perl" and "Powered by Apache" ones we see on many sites.

(See http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/archives/2005/03/11/powered.html rectangle_power_perl.gif powered-by-apache2.gif powered_by_apache.gif apache.gif powered-by-perl.png powered_by_PERL_CGI.png evem-powered-by-twiki.gif

These I would suggest supplying a library of, in different sizes, so that they can match the other "powered by..." logos sites use.)

Personally I feed that branding on every page is more powerful, but this approach also lets site managers put the corporate brand on the WebTopBar with no worried about you loosing out on your branding.

The second has to do with the old %WEBCOLOR% that we seem to have lost. Having the favicon and WebTopBar logos in the WEBCOLOR is a useful mnemonic.

What, you ask, about other custom webs. Well they will have custom logos won't they?

-- AntonAylward - 30 Sep 2005

Arthur and I decided on the logo, see TWikiLogos. Please let us know what you think.

Anton, good idea on the small logo at the bottom. Many sites will use a custom logo, so a small TWiki logo at the bottom makes sense.

Adding it here on TWiki.org for testing. Hmm, the 88x31 logo at the bottom seems to be somewhat intrusive. Opinions?

-- PeterThoeny - 02 Oct 2005

ah, thats much better smile thanks for the hard work guys.

-- SvenDowideit - 02 Oct 2005

i don't think it's intrusive at all. it's a bit illegible, but not intrusive...

-- WillNorris - 02 Oct 2005

I like the logo at the bottom, though as Will says, it's illegible on my display.

The sizes you have done, while very pretty, bear no relation to the existing logo set. It would be better to stick with the symbolic naming for the logos - after all, an IMG tag can be used to control rendered size. The current set of symbolic names is:

  • logo.png - used in the top-left corner
  • smallLogo.gif - GIF version of logo.png
  • horzTWiki.gif - not used
  • horzTWikiPowered.gif - used on the "front page"of the TWiki web
  • vertTWiki.gif - not used
  • vertTWikiPowered - not used
  • favicon.ico

It would be great if we could rationalise this set to:

  • TWikiWebLogo.png - for the top-left corner of the TWiki web
  • favicon.ico
  • smallPoweredByTWiki.png
  • largeCollaborateWithTWiki.png
All logos should have an SVG version and a PNG version both checked in to the repository. PNG is preferred because more tools work with it.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 02 Oct 2005

Great to see the new logo finally up at TWiki.org - so much better than before, thanks for all the hard work.

-- RichardDonkin - 02 Oct 2005

"PNG from SVG": the logotype font should be Avenir, not Verdana. Also the spacing between balloon and logotype is too small.

-- ArthurClemens - 02 Oct 2005

A huge thanks to Arthur for all the hard work on the logo! I second Crawford's suggestion of standardizing a set of logos for the 4 most obvious uses/locations he lists. A "powered by" version makes sense in that "collaborate with" doesn't convey that a site is actually built on twiki.

-- LynnwoodBrown - 02 Oct 2005

A kind of "powered by" logo with still the same text "collaborate with TWiki" (derived from Apache logo):

poweredbyTWiki.gif

alternatively the text TWiki only:

poweredbyTWiki_small.gif

or the small version without gray gradient (better I think):

poweredbyTWiki3.gif

  • Arthur: We should stick with the "collaborate with" logo tag. It conveys action, emphasizes what TWiki is about, and implicitly can mean "powered by". -- PeterThoeny - 02 Oct 2005

-- ArthurClemens - 02 Oct 2005

The logotype font I used was "Sans" in Inkscape, which was the closest match I could find. Avenir is not offered (on my machine anyway)

Sorry for munging the spacing - I probably accidentally shifted it while trying to resize smile - Fixed below.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 02 Oct 2005

I tested the logos on a black background... the text is quite difficult to read.

Check TWikiLogosBlackBackground

-- RafaelAlvarez - 02 Oct 2005

Crawford: I deliberately chose specific names with dimensions in the filename. The WIKILOGOIMG setting already provides an abstraction, I do not see a need to have a double abstraction. A generic name can even be confusing, inviting a siteowner to overwrite the logo instead of attaching a new logo and fixing the WIKILOGOIMG setting.

Also, for precise artwork it is better not to rely on the browser resize feature. Not all bowsers handle antialiasing nicely. Better to omit size or specify exact size to get 100% size. Hence I created a logo set with 6 different sizes (each logo is hand tuned for readability).

Rafael: The logos are antialiased to make them look smoother. They are done specifically for light background. Transparent png vs gif does not matter here (check out the transparent png version). If there is a need, a new transparent logo set can be created that works with dark background. Alternatively, a less nice looking logo set can be created that has no antialias, which works on any background. Is there a need?

Arthur: On transparent png vs gif, I prefer to stick with gif since there are less browsers compatibility issues.

Arthur: I reduced the size of the "TM". The SVG version should be fixed accordingly.

-- PeterThoeny - 02 Oct 2005

Arthur suggested to use the full logo on the upper left corner of TWiki topics. The 50 pix logo looked to big, so I created a smaller full logo with 35 pixel height.

-- PeterThoeny - 02 Oct 2005

I like having the full logo at the top of each page - it's important to see the whole thing when someone finds a TWiki page through a search engine.

-- RichardDonkin - 03 Oct 2005

Peter: I don't think you really understood my point about the 'powered by..." stamp.

I was talking about the bottom bar. There along with the possible or probable "Powered by Apache" and "Powered by RedHat/Suse/Mandriva Linux"

The "Collaborate with TWiki" is great in the body of the page or the top bar. Personally I think its should be a large, possibly even vertical, on Main.WebHome, about where you currently have the "Tip of the Day" on TWiki:Main.WebHome

These are two distinct roles and two distinct mesasges besing sent. Think of it this way. There are all the "Powered by...." icons, Apache, Perl, Linux, mod_perl. Having a "Collaborate with TWiki" rather than a "Powered by TWiki" in this context would look incongruous. As Lunwood says: A "powered by" version makes sense in that "collaborate with" doesn't convey that a site is actually built on twiki.

-- AntonAylward - 03 Oct 2005

Peter: On transparent png vs gif While I agree with you about browser limitations, I think you are forgetting an important point.

The distribution packages should have the GIF version bound by default in the WebPreferences, yes, but the other versions should be made availabe because they are much easier to manipulate than GIFs. One might argue that GIFs are optimized for display just as object code is optimized for execution. To continue the analogy, if you have the "source" you can always "compile". But its easier to manipulate teh soruce than the object code.

As an example: I think that visual cues are important, and miss the colour coding of webs. True, too much colour can make things look ungainly. However I think that a logo and favicon that are indiidually coloured are useful visual cues. Working this way still displays the TWiki logo. Now you may not agree about colour coding webs. You can make that choice where you have control. If you desire to deny that option, that all webs must have the same colour scheme, then you should say so specifically.

Including the PNG or SVG in the SVN set is a 'low cost' item. It makes them available for those who, like me, want to modify the colours or do a 'vertical' version or a 3-dimensional or a animated version. This adds, without having to fall back to the "skin tone" stock images such as teh one at http://faemalia.org/wiki/view/Tweak/GroundZero that you mentioned. In fact it postively encourages creativity. We can control what gets bundled by use of the MANIFEST at build time.

GIFs for display: Yes. PNG/SVG for manipulation: Yes.

-- AntonAylward - 03 Oct 2005

Topic attachments
I Attachment History Action Size Date Who Comment
SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics)svg logo_balloon_final.svg r1 manage 85.7 K 2005-10-02 - 17:31 ArthurClemens SVG of final logo
GIFgif poweredbyTWiki3.gif r1 manage 0.7 K 2005-10-02 - 17:23 ArthurClemens powered by logo, 62 x 15 px
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Topic revision: r179 - 2008-10-16 - TomasPospisek
 
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